(00:01) Stephanie Warner: Welcome everyone to Season 4, episode 47. Hello, Father.
(00:06) Marcus Warner: Hello, Daughter.
(00:08) Stephanie Warner: You are in a new place. You are actually on the trail.
(00:12) Marcus Warner: I am. I am on the trail in Michigan. Yeah.
(00:15) Stephanie Warner: Hello, Michigan. This is good. I’m going to come see you soon. Oh, man. Well, today we are continuing our book series. Our book study through What Every Believer Should Know About Spiritual Warfare by Sir Marcus Warner here. You’re knighted now; how do you feel about it?
(00:37) Marcus Warner: I’ve yeah, well Dream come true. Okay.
(00:42) Stephanie Warner: Yes, and today we are in chapter five, called Demons and Deception, which, you know, it’s a cheerful topic. So, before we get into it, I just want to say the goal of this series is to equip you with a spiritual warfare first aid kit, so you can function with more freedom on your deeper walk with God.
And for this series, we also want to direct you to a DIY book club kit that is a free download in the description links. You can use this for personal reflection or if you’re going through the book study with a group, and we want this series, this book study, to be something that you can come back to whenever you’re ready to to run a group, or do something with this book, that it’s available to you. So thank you for being here on the trail with us. Yes, Father?
(01:28) Marcus Warner: Yeah. Well, I had this random thought, which is always dangerous. But this random thought was, we were chatting with somebody this week who said, “Hey, I caught up. I’m up, I’m current on the thing.” And I’m like, maybe we should have a badge or something that we give out to people who have actually managed to be current with this podcast. But that would be kind of fun, wouldn’t it?
(01:49) Stephanie Warner: My goodness, yes. The Fellowship of the Trail badge.
(01:55) Marcus Warner: The Fellowship of the Trail badge. That would be really cool.
(02:00) Stephanie Warner: It is true. I mean, honestly, I am always percolating on future plans for podcast things and community building and all of that. So if anybody ever has thoughts, feel free to reach out to me. Comment your thoughts on an episode or whatnot.
(02:12) Marcus Warner: We just won’t have like a ring dangling from the Fellowship of the Trail thing. Okay?
(02:14) Stephanie Warner: Yeah, no, it’s not going to be a ring. Mm-mm. No. “Danger, danger, Will Robinson.” So I’m crossing all the genres here. So, today we’re going to get into chapter five, Demons and Deception. And yes, we are going to talk a little bit more about random thoughts as we get into it. But first we’re going to look at demons.
So I’m just going to kind of open up the topic with the question, what is your understanding of what demons are? Now obviously I feel like this one question could expand into being an entire episode. So this can’t be a whole robust answer, but just like to get us on a page with you.
(03:01) Marcus Warner: So, you know, the simple answer has always been the demons are fallen angels. But I think that the more refined answer is that in the category of spirit beings that are in rebellion against God, we just call them all demons. So we use the word as a major category term. Like whether they’re fallen angels or whether there’s some other creatures, if they’re in rebellion against God, they’re spirit beings on the other side. We tend to just refer to them all as demons.
In a more specific sense though, the Greek term demon and the intertestamental use of demon in Jewish culture are remarkably similar. And that is, they tended to be specifically about spirits that roam the earth looking for people to harass and inhabit. And so when we talk about demon, we tend to talk about it in the broad sense of any spirit that is in rebellion against God. But there are occasions where the more technical definition is probably in order.
(04:14) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. And so in this chapter you mentioned things like demons ruling over regions and institutions and having influence over people, you know, or demons exercising power over nature. So can you…
(04:29) Marcus Warner: And that’s the broad category of the word demon. That would be all inclusive. So the apostle Paul, for example, in Colossians talks about thrones and dominions and powers and principalities and authorities. And I go through all these different terms and I know people who have tried to identify what each specific one of these is, and I’ve never tried to figure that out or to see if there is even an answer to all of that.
But what struck me was this idea of principalities and powers in particular, and that is principalities has the word prince in it. They are ruling over things. They are called archone in Greek. They are rulers. And then there are powers, and so one seems to be connected to ruling and the other one seems to be more connected to making power things happen, you know, being over the powers of nature and things like that.
But even that I honestly haven’t taken a deep dive into it, because I am not routinely dealing with the powers of nature as a spiritual warfare thing. We’re talking more about, you know, the harassment that believers go through and how to have victory in those battles.
(05:52) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’m sure that surprises some people. Like, wait, you’re like, spiritual warfare is kind of your thing. What do you mean you don’t dig into all that? So I guess…
(06:02) Marcus Warner: It’s a big thing, right? It’s a big area and it’s sort of like saying I major in the Old Testament. It feels like, well, that’s more specific than just the Bible, but it’s still a huge area, and it’s totally different to be an expert in the Torah than it is to be an expert in the wisdom literature, or the, you know, whatever. There’s just a lot of things you can specify in.
So when it comes to spiritual warfare, our focus has always been on helping Christians walk in freedom. And what that means is, we don’t spend as much time in power encounter type things where missionaries often face, when you get a missionary versus a shaman or something like that. We don’t spend as much time with the cosmic battles that are going on that have to do with the end of the age, and the rise and fall of nations. So there’s a lot, lot to it, and there’s a lot that could be profitably unpacked. And, you know, I’ve done some research on those things, but our main focus is clearly on Christians walking in freedom and how do we help them.
(07:02) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. So I guess you’re stepping into a takeaway there, but I’m curious about like when you’re looking at this subject of demons as a whole, like what is the kind of primary takeaway that you have for people who are studying the subject, or specifically, I guess, in the context of what every believer should know about demons.
(07:24) Marcus Warner: Yeah. So I think, you know, every believer should know, I think it helps to know, that there’s these three different categories of spiritual warfare. And one of them I sometimes divide it into four, but you know, I call one cosmic, and that has to do with gods and goddesses and watchers and Nephilim and you all that stuff, right? It has to do with the rise and fall of nations and the end of the age and all this cosmic warfare going on.
And you can find no end of literature on that, but it’s not something I feel a tremendous amount of conviction about. I know a lot of the different theories, but I don’t have a strong conviction about very many of them, because they don’t frankly affect how I live much. I think that realm is affected the most through intercessory prayer.
(08:23) Marcus Warner: And I think that intercessory prayer, at that level, is a bit of a calling in which the Holy Spirit has to be working with you on what you’re doing there. Hasn’t been my calling. So the second level is power encounter. And in power encounter, I would also include most of the deliverance that we see in the New Testament where Jesus or Paul just says, be gone and it’s gone, and there’s no process, there’s no, let’s deal with permission, let’s deal with this. It’s just power against power and you have to leave. And that usually happens in an evangelistic setting. We’re talking about demons inhabiting non-Christians in those settings and being evicted.
But then we do get to this idea of Christian freedom. And understand that the Bible has a lot to say, that Christians can live in slavery even though they’ve been set free, and that we can be ensnared. And we need to watch out for the devil’s snares. And so we’re talking about slave language, ensnarement, entrapment language, and deception is a big part of that.
Because if I can control what you believe, then I can control how you feel, and I can control how you behave. And so emotions and behavior both flow very naturally out of beliefs. And that is, you know, the devil’s forte. It’s why he’s called a liar and the father of lies. And why in the book of Revelation, when he’s cast in the lake of fire, it says the deceiver of the nations, you know, is finally out of the way.
(10:01) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. Well, that is an excellent segue into the second half of the chapter here: deception. This is one of the devil’s key strategies. He is the father of lies. And in this chapter you walk through thoughts, tapes, and voices of ways that there’s demonic deception that can add to that ensnarement. So what do you have to say about that?
(10:30) Marcus Warner: Yeah, so we’ll just start with the thoughts level. So at the thought level, there first of all can just be random thoughts that come to you and out of the blue. It’s like I talked to a young man one time who was actually struggling with anorexia. And you don’t run into young men with this too often, but he did. And when we kind of finally got back to the roots, like the first thought that started this process, and he remembers looking at himself and thinking, I’m fat. And the thought that came next was, my parents lied to me because his parents had told him he wasn’t fat.
And so what happens is he looked at one thing that wasn’t perfect, right? And in his stomach, and said, that translates into I’m fat and I have been lied to. And so where do thoughts like that come from? Right? A thought like that was planted, it was just thrown out there to see if he’d bite. Right? Once he bit on that, now they stick around and they’re going to give you another thought, another thought. And so eventually he was able to get help and he was able to move forward. But his bondage to an eating disorder began with a single thought, and that single thought was, you’ve been lied to, and you’re actually fat.
And so I look at this and like there’s a lot of different ways we can unpack that because it looks differently for different people. But that’s what I mean by a random thought. It’s just like the enemy throwing out this thought to see if you bite. And if we bite on it, then he can run with it. There are also thoughts that come not as words, but as comparisons, and then they become words.
And so I talked to several people who compared themselves to their brothers or their sisters. It’s like, well, why am I not as fun as my brother, or why am I not as smart as my sister, or why am I not as pretty as this person, or as handsome as that, or as athletic, or whatever. We just compare ourselves. And then, first starts the comparison, then come the thoughts. And those thoughts are, well, you know, you’ll never be good enough, you’ll always be second, you know… What you are is not worth as much as what you know they are.
(12:53) Marcus Warner: And all these thoughts start to come and they create bondage. And to the extent that I believe those lies, I am not free to live and just be myself because I constantly feel like I have to be somebody else or live up to this standard even I can’t quite define. And so that’s what we mean by thoughts. Like thoughts that come our way and we don’t recognize them as enemy thoughts because there’s usually a little bit of truth to them. And then they take over and they create bondage in our lives.
(13:34) Stephanie Warner: Yeah. And you usually refer to them as yeah, as thoughts or random thoughts. One time I heard you say, “thought bait” and it works with the, you know, he’s casting a line and seeing if you’ll bite, and so I’ll think about it as thought bait sometimes…
(13:45) Marcus Warner: Yeah, that works. I don’t even remember saying that, but I picture, let’s use a worm for this one, let’s use a fly for this one, let’s use different kinds of bait, let’s see which one they bite on. Yeah, and it’s true, and it never ends, right? Our whole life, the enemy is there, and he’s constantly throwing these things out. So I still have to deal with it, right? I know you deal with it. I know we all have… That’s not something that ever ends.
And this is partly, I think, what Paul’s addressing when he says taking up your shield of faith with which to quench all the fiery arrows of the enemy. And I think of those arrows as trying situations, like whether it’s comparison or whether it’s just pain, those are then followed by thoughts. And it’s those thoughts that really kind of take root and begin driving the way we feel and the way we act.
(14:44) Stephanie Warner: Yeah, well, and it’s that thought of, you know, you can’t keep a bird from landing on your head, but you can keep it from building a nest there, and taking thoughts captive and making them obedient to Christ and say, Mm, I don’t want to be having that thought. And sometimes even if you’re like, is it a demon putting it there? Like, does it matter? If you’re having a thought that is not in alignment with what Jesus would want you to be thinking, then take it captive, you know, like…
(15:12) Marcus Warner: Yeah. Well and Karl Payne, you know, the way he addresses that, he’s like, if it is just your flesh and it’s just the thought you’re battling with, you should be able to replace it. But if you find that you can’t replace it, right, then you might consider that this could be demonic, and it needs to be resisted and told to leave. In my own, you know, kind of silly way, I’ve said sometimes you have to shoot the messenger. You don’t just have to replace the lie, you’ve got to get rid of the messenger who’s telling you the lie.
(15:42) Stephanie Warner: Yes. Yes. The demonic messenger who keeps bringing you a very unwanted letter. Yeah. All right, so then the next one, the next layer there is tapes. So what are tapes?
(15:55) Marcus Warner: So tapes tend to be associated with wounds. And usually there’s some trauma in my past that has taught me to believe something. And because it is factually based, like this really did happen. I really did go through this. The pain was very real. Now the thoughts that came have turned into repetitious thoughts that I just live with constantly. And they just feel like part of the framework in which I live my life.
And so a tape is just, it’s the same thought I’ve been battling this my whole life, you know, I’ve been battling this for years. And it’s just this thinking that I’m no good, I don’t measure up, I’m not worth loving, there’s something fundamentally wrong with me. You know, all these things. And then it can turn into doubts about your salvation and doubts about, you know, where you stand with God. So, yeah, the tapes tend to be repetitious. They’re just repetitious. It’s the same ones, and they tend to most of the time be anchored in some kind of trauma.
(17:05) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And something will get triggered and then it’s just like, here come, you know, you might not even be thinking any of these thoughts, but as soon as that trigger happens, all of a sudden, yep, here’s the row of repetitious, you know, this always happens.
(17:19) Marcus Warner: Yeah. I look at it like, if the first one is like an archer shooting an arrow at you that needs to be taken out by the shield of faith, this one is more like it’s something that got planted in me a long time ago because of a wound. And so whenever that wound gets triggered or the emotions of that wound get triggered, that thought comes up again. And so that’s what we mean by tapes. It’s kind of anchored there.
(17:48) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. And then there can be voices that are deceiving.
(17:50) Marcus Warner: Yeah. So basically the difference between tape and a voice is that a voice will actually have a conversation with you. And so if you have a thought in your head, you talk to it and it answers back. Or it’s coming to you in the form of “we”. It’s saying we have you, you will never be free from us. You know, that’s a little bit different than a tape in your head. That’s like a voice that’s talking to you.
Or if it’s saying you will never measure up. And you’re like, why would I be talking to myself in second person like that? So there’s something in there saying, You are a problem. You will never be good enough. You know, that’s a sign that you might be dealing with a voice. And those voices aren’t always demonic, but the odds that they are demons go up dramatically when it’s doing that sort of thing.
(18:47) Stephanie Warner: Yeah, I was going to say this second person isn’t just a dead giveaway for demonic. You can be like, “You’ve got this” to yourself and…
(18:55) Marcus Warner: Well, yeah, because it’s true. And sometimes I’ve heard somebody put it this way, that a lot of what we call our conscience is sort of our inner parent, where we can still hear our mom and dad saying, you will do this or you shouldn’t do that or you’re like this. And that’s not demonic. That’s just kind of the way I’ve learned to think about myself. So I actually tend to put more stock in it if you’re hearing we and us going, you know, we – you’ll never be free from us. We are more powerful than you. That’s a little bit bigger of a sign.
(19:32) Stephanie Warner: So…we’ve already talked about worldview and in other episodes and I intend to talk about it again, but I do think that it’s hard to get away from talking about worldview when you’re talking about demons and deception. Like it frames the way you see the world, it frames the way you relate to people. So how do you see, kind of demonic deception? Which maybe is a redundant statement. Yeah.
(20:05) Marcus Warner: Right. At the worldview level, right? Is that what yeah, okay.
(20:06) Stephanie Warner: Yeah, at a worldview level and and like the power of all that and yeah.
(20:11) Marcus Warner: So Satan is called the deceiver of the nations. Now, deceiving a nation, right, is different than deceiving a person. And so the way that Satan would go about deceiving me, for example, like through comparing myself to others or whatever random thoughts he wants to give is going to be a little bit different. When you’re deceiving nations, you’re deceiving them at the worldview level. And that is fundamentally distorting what they believe about reality.
And so when Paul writes that the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but they have divine power for demolishing strongholds, he’s talking about, in an evangelistic context, of entering into realms where that culture has a worldview that is adversarial to Christianity. And he’s like, Well, you know, I don’t just go in and argue with these people, right? That would be a fleshly weapon. Like let’s just go argue with them. He said, neither we have divine power for demolishing strongholds.
I think he’s alluding there to power encounters. Like where he’s like, we go in, all right, you say that Baal is God, I say Yahweh is God. Let’s put it to the test and see what happens here. And so I think what he’s saying is I don’t just come in with, you know, impressive arguments. I come in with displays of power. And so he’s talking about the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk, but of power, and love, and a sound mind, and all these things. That’s where I bring these things together.
So the devil is very active in wanting to form and perpetuate the worldviews of the culture that war against Christianity in a Christian worldview. And I sometimes define discipleship this way, that discipleship is changing my worldview. It is changing my worldview from the cultural worldview I grew up with and learning to embrace a kingdom worldview. Because the worldview of the culture I grew up with gave me a set of values and that leads to a certain set of behaviors.
What I want is a worldview that is anchored in the kingdom of God that leads to a different set of values and leads to a different set of behaviors. Now, where that gets distorted is legalism reverses the order and says, let’s judge your behaviors and then let’s try to deal with your values and then we’ll deal with the worldview later. But I do think the discipleship really is largely about changing our worldview. And one of the most effective ways to change your worldview is to change the people that you hang out with.
Because Paul says don’t be deceived, bad company corrupts good character, and what forms culture is who I feel belonging with and attachment to. And you can see it all the time. It’s like the people that you hang out with tend to inform what you believe about life and what you value and think is important in the way that you behave. So if people are like, Well, how do I change my worldview? It’s studying scripture, yes, but it’s also a matter of getting in with people who are actively pursuing that kingdom lifestyle. And without that it’s going to be very difficult to see much change.
(23:42) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’ve got to bring together the learning with the practice and the attachments and all together is good. I’m tempted to ask more questions, but we’re going to talk a lot more. I’m going to start closing us out here for this episode. And so firstly, I just want to say at the end of this month, on August 29th, live will be the Battle Ready Conference, where Dad is going to be talking more about this practical spiritual warfare. Karl Payne is going to be there talking about biblical foundations, and Dan Allison is actually going to be unpacking like how to do a session of freedom prayer. And then they’re also going to have a panel with Q and A.
So if you are listening to this before the event, you have the opportunity to, there’s a link in the description for a kind of a Q and A form that you can submit some questions. If you have questions about spiritual warfare, they might be able to answer some of them in the panel and we’ll also try to answer some of them on the podcast. And so avail yourself of that form and ask some questions. We’ll try to get to as many as we can. And then yeah I’m just going to leave it there. Thank you everybody for being on the trail with us. We couldn’t do it without you. We’re so grateful to be here with you, and Father, I’m going to ask you for final thoughts on this episode.
(25:11) Marcus Warner: Well, you know, my final thoughts here are, actually go to the conference. I was thinking back that Karl Payne and I were doing a conference together at Moody Church, and Dan Allison came and attended because they were dealing with warfare stuff at his church. He was looking for help, and he’s a great example of somebody who took what he learned from Karl and me, internalized it, used it to create his own process, and it has now helped hundreds of people.
And so it’s kind of an interesting way to see two people who do practice but kind of laid out the theory and then somebody who took that and ran with it and has put together a process that has helped like hundreds and hundreds of people. And so I think it’s going to be a great opportunity to learn here. In terms of deception, I just go back to that, this gets back to roots and rights, and that is that all deception is rooted in the devil, and all deception gives them rights. Because when we are operating in the realm of deception, we’re operating on their turf. And it’s one of the reasons why we have to cut these things off and and and why we want to live in the light and live out of truth.
(26:23) Stephanie Warner: Yep. And I also just want to quickly add, I said if you’re, you know, attending live for that, you can submit questions. But you can always get a recording of the Battle Ready Conference if you want to come back to it. So that is there. Next week we are talking about the occult in chapter six. So – light topics. Yep. And we’ll see you back then.
