1: Breakthrough!: Growth Models

[00:00] Stephanie: And we’re back. Season three, episode one. Hello, Father.

[00:05] Marcus: Hello, Daughter. It’s good to be back.

[00:07] Stephanie: It’s so good to be with you. Welcome back to our new studio.

[00:12] Marcus: Yeah, it’s amazing what happens when you leave for three months.

[00:14] Stephanie: I know.

[00:15] Marcus: Everything changes.

[00:16] Stephanie: Kudos to Ben and Faith again for all of their hard work to get us out of our house studio and into the office.

[00:24] Marcus: Now, this is nice. It is actually nice to be out of the house, and it’s nice to be here in our Deeper Walk office.

[00:31] Stephanie: Welcome back from sabbatical. We’re not gonna take a whole episode to debrief you on your sabbatical, but I am curious if you have one or two highlights when you think back on the sabbatical. What surfaces and gives you joy?

[00:46] Marcus: One of those highlights was that we had some friends who made a place available to us, and we took full advantage of that and spent time in Colorado. And Brenda and I got to drive down the highway in front of the central spine, where they have all these 14,000 foot peaks in a row.

We were there at a time when it was covered in snow (I’m usually there in the summer, and there’s not much snow on the mountains.), so it was really spectacular to be able to be in the mountains and see them that snow-covered. That was a highlight.

And then we got to hang out with some friends at a house they had recently built that was right along one of the Great Lakes. And so we got to hang out on the shores of the Great Lakes. You were there with us. We had a good time, and that was a happy memory, too.

[01:31] Stephanie: I found a rock that looked like a potato at that lake. It made me very happy.

[01:35] Marcus: It’s a potato rock. We need to rename the lake. One of the Great Lakes is now Potato Rock Lake, I think.

[01:43] Stephanie: Well, we are so glad to have you back. And I also just have to note that I’m pretty sure, if I’ve done my calculations correctly, this is our 100th new podcast episode.

[01:56] Marcus: Someone should say huzzah.

[02:00] Stephanie: Huzzah! Not counting our compilation rerun episodes, I’m pretty sure this is our hundredth, so that’s fun. Thank you, everybody, for being on the trail with us for that long. This is just very exciting.

We are happy to be back on the trail with you now. And we are listening to our listeners. All year I have been getting requests: “Please, please, please do a breakthrough series. We want Breakthrough.”

The book, Breakthrough, (Ah, you have it) came out in the spring, and it’s been our year of breakthrough overall as a ministry. It makes sense to actually now start pressing into this book.

[02:39] Marcus: I’m excited about what we have coming up. You’ve done a lot of work, and I think we’re really looking forward to these conversations. I think there’s a lot here, and there’s a lot to unpack, so I’m glad we have this opportunity.

[02:52] Stephanie: Believe you, me, this might feel like a fire hose, and there is more in the book. So go get the book. And also, I’ll just alert you right now that you can start reading it for free. There’s a link in the description below for a free chapter also.

So I just wanted to kind of paint a picture for where we’re going in brief. The first half of our year, we had a really lovely, robust Exodus healing journey series, and then we went into compilation-series mode while you were on sabbatical, Dad.

And so now we’re entering into a breakthrough topic series, but we’re going to take it in microbites, where we do a couple episodes on a topic at a time, and we’re going to see how that goes.

So our first micro series within the Breakthrough series is going to be about the growth models and setting it all up. So, growth models, Father. What is that?

[03:48] Marcus: Assuming you want a definition, right? What is a growth model? A growth model is our philosophy of change. It’s the philosophy of how change actually happens. Because there’s a lot of people who say, “I would love to change my life. I would love to get rid of this bad habit. I would love to build this new habit. I would love things to change.”

So what is the philosophy of how that happens? And it might seem pretty straightforward, but there are a ton of them out there. With every worldview and every theological system, there is a different change model.

So what we’re going to be talking about here is a Deeper Walk growth model. What is it that we have put together, and how does it combine the five engines of our body and the spirit realm to help people change?

[04:33] Stephanie: To achieve not just one big breakthrough but a journey of breakthroughs in multiple areas. Why is transformation important? What is the goal of transformation?

[04:48] Marcus: Well, you know, the goal of transformation is to be on a journey to see something change in my life that is actually ruining my life. This is robbing me of joy, it’s robbing me of peace, it’s making me treat people the way I don’t want to treat people. I’ve got habits in my life I don’t want there. There are problems here.”

[05:08] Stephanie: Who did God design me to be? How do I grow into that person?

[05:12] Marcus: Right. I’ve got these problems I want to get rid of. And then on the positive side of this — besides getting rid of problems — I want to grow my ability to live like myself, which is a good definition of maturity. I want to grow my understanding of who I am, and I want to grow my ability to be consistent with that identity, regardless of what is taking place in my life.

[05:32] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. I think it’s really helpful — when we’re looking at what we want, what the goal is — to have a mirror on or a contrast on what we don’t want or things that people have tried that are incomplete.

And so to that end, let’s talk about Cloud and Townsend and how they identified in their book, How People Grow, four models that people have leaned on for their transformation and why they might not work as well as we think they do.

[06:06] Marcus: Cloud and Townsend are some of the most famous Christian counselors of the last generation. I had an opportunity to meet them once, and they’ve done a lot of great work. It helped a lot of people. Their book, How People Grow, is essentially their growth model and what needs to happen.

At the beginning of it, they talk about four common growth models in Christianity that they have seen, and they want to give a little understanding of why these are incomplete growth models and why a more comprehensive growth model is needed. And I would agree with them on that. I think it’s worth taking a little time to walk through those.

[06:45] Stephanie: All right. So, yeah, let’s walk through them. The first one is the sin model.

[06:52] Marcus: Yeah, the sin model. So this starts with the idea that all of our problems ultimately are anchored in sin, which is, on some levels, obviously true. If there was no sin, original sin in the Garden of Eden, if the devil had not sinned and there was no fall, then we don’t have this issue. We aren’t dealing with anything.

So everything at some level can be thought of as sin repair. But that has led some people to think of sin repair or sin management as the only thing that we’re doing. And it can very quickly turn into behavior management, legalism.

It can turn into a just-stop-it kind of mindset when it comes to how we help people. It’s like, the Bible says this is a sin, so just stop it. And it doesn’t give you a whole lot of tools.

I want to stop it. That’s kind of why I’m here. I don’t seem to be able to stop it. Can you help me figure out what’s going on?

So, on one hand, the sin model clearly has something to do with what’s going on. It involves repentance, it involves forgiveness, and it involves healing from sin done to us. It involves making restitution for sin that we’ve done. There’s a lot of good things in the sin model. It’s just not complete.

[08:09] Stephanie: Another one they talk about is the truth model.

[08:12] Marcus: So again, Jesus said very clearly, ‘You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.’ So if that is your whole model, and you say, Jesus said the truth will set you free, but he didn’t say it was the only thing that sets you free.

And I think that that’s where people get hung up a little bit. We have developed a lot of systems that try to reduce everything to a core lie and say, if you can just deal with that core lie, everything will improve. Now, there are a lot of core lies, and it is something that we have to deal with, and it does produce a lot of freedom when we deal with it.

What we’re saying is there’s more going on here than just replacing lies. While that is important, and you will get a breakthrough on your journey by identifying and replacing core lies, the breakthrough we’re looking for of leveling up our emotional capacity to a whole other category, isn’t going to happen just by replacing lies.

There’s more to it. So, it’s a good model, and it’s got a lot of good things going for it, it’s just not everything.

[09:15] Stephanie: I would also add to that, on the more positive side of things, that there’s the identifying and removing of a lie, but there’s also the expanding of your perspective and understanding reality better and getting more truth.

The more truth I learn, the more I understand, and the more it will fix. And we’re also saying that is very good but not a complete model.

[09:39] Marcus: And again, a large part of where I started in ministry was the truth model where  we’ve got to identify these lies and replace them with Biblical truth. And it helps a lot of people and is absolutely a part of what we’re doing. It’s just not everything.

[09:56] Stephanie: Another model that Cloud and Townsend brought up was the experiential model, which had to do with inner healing and prayer experiences.

[10:04] Marcus: So with the experiential model they actually used the word archaeology, like emotional archaeology, with the goal of our session to do some digging around, find out what those root issues are, find out what the memories are that got them started, and then try to get you to have an experience with Jesus to heal them. So we clearly do that.

That’s clearly something that we teach. It’s clearly something that we promote, just like we promote all those things. We promote sin management. We promote repentance and forgiveness. We promote identifying and replacing lies. We definitely do all of these things.

Our point is that we’ve got to have a model that brings them all together and sees their proper role and their proper context. What happens is that some people make it sound like if you do this and you have the right experience, then everything can be taken care of.

[10:54] Stephanie: Everything’s fixed.

[10:55] Marcus: Everything’s fixed, and we can move on. And that’s what we’re trying to avoid.

[10:59] Stephanie: And then the final one I’ll just bring up here from Cloud and Townsend, was the supernatural model.

[11:04] Marcus: So when Cloud and Townsend talk about the supernatural model, they have two things in mind, and that is either demonic supernatural or Holy Spirit supernatural. And the idea is people say all you need is to identify and get rid of the demons, and you will be fine.

Now, I’ve got as many stories as almost anybody on people who did that. They identified a demon, they got rid of the demon and they got a breakthrough, but there was more that they needed after that.

I’ve seen plenty of people who got that. They got that deliverance, but they still had issues because there were still other things that needed to be addressed. And that’s what we’re talking about. It’s a part of the model, but it’s not the whole model.

The same thing applies on the Holy Spirit side. And that is God can do a miraculous work in somebody’s life and heal something that felt unhealable, and God did it in a moment, but that power that the Holy Spirit unleashes does not produce instant maturity.

What it does give is a breakthrough on the journey as we are looking for growth. Neil Anderson used to put it this way. He said, “Freedom can come in a moment. Maturity takes work.”

It’s something that we have to develop over time, because maturity has to be earned. I will also say that freedom from this thing can come in a moment. That doesn’t mean I am universally free of every problem that I have in my life.

[12:31] Stephanie: We untied this knot and unlocked this part of the chain.

[12:35] Marcus: Yeah and because of that, there’s actually some counselors I’ve met who just don’t even use the word breakthrough anymore because too many people come to them thinking that if you show me the one root thing and we deal with it, then all of my problems will be solved. And so I’m not promoting that.

One reason we identify these growth models is because that is almost never the solution. We’re always looking for multiple obstacles that are getting in our way. How do I resolve each obstacle, and then what do I need to do beyond removing obstacles to actually build something?

So, let me give you a picture I’ve used on a couple occasions. I put two garbage cans and a toolbox up on the stage. And the idea was, garbage can number one is where we put our spiritual warfare stuff. If you’ve got demons, we throw the demons in the trash over here. And that’s one level of breakthrough, one level of freedom. So throw demons in the trash, I’m all for that.

So then the other is dealing with our emotional healing issues, and that is wounds that I’ve got, lies that I have believed, and things that aren’t necessarily demonic, but they are things that I’m throwing away and I’m getting rid of out of my life. And those will both give you some level of breakthrough.

But then we have the toolbox, and the toolbox is about the things that require construction in my life and not just getting rid of things in my life. And so when it comes to the construction part of this, that’s really where I’m doing things to actively grow my maturity, to build my emotional capacity to increase something.

And so what we’re trying to show in what we call the maturity model is that all of these things are needed. There are some things we have to offload, and some things we need to develop. To use it purely in Paul’s terms, there are things we put off, and there are things we put on.

So we’ve got to put off these things because they’re getting in our way, and we’ve got to put on those things that make us more Christ-like and help us grow our maturity. And what we’re trying to do is be very specific about what those are, how we do it, and what this whole journey looks like.

[14:37] Stephanie: So, we won’t cover all of this right now because we have whole episodes and series and books and stuff about it that we’ve already covered, but you and Jim Wilder in Solution of Choice talk about the four good ideas that neutralized western Christianity.

And then you present these four good ideas — reason, choice, power, tolerance — these four good ideas are spokes on the wheel, but people, in different eras, keep asking them to be the hub of the wheel. And you present that no, this is what the hub of the wheel is.

[15:10] Marcus: Yeah, we argue that the hub of the wheel is actually attachment. And the core model here is John 15, abiding in Christ. And the idea here is Christ is the vine, and we are the branches. And what is the key to bearing fruit? It is attachment. It is our attachment to Christ. We are grafted in, we are abiding with him.

Now, our attachment to Christ is deeper than just the choices that we make. It’s different than just a powerful experience that we have with God. All those things may be included in it, but it’s more than that. It’s about our core attachment. And therefore, what we want is a deeper walk.

We want a deeper connection. We want a deeper link to Christ. And so we say you have to keep that at the heart of things, and then everything else could be attached to that.

I’ll also say this about the four elements in Solution of Choice, and that is that each one of those also represents a growth model, because reason is its own growth model. Just fix your reasoning, and everything will be fine. Will represents a growth model. Just make better choices, and everything will be fine.

Power. You’ve just got to have the right power experience. That’s kind of the supernatural model Cloud and Townsend were talking about. And then there’s tolerance, which in some ways is giving up on the idea that there is a solution. And so it’s not that we don’t practice tolerance. We want to be tolerant of people, but if it’s our only solution then we’re not actually …

[16:33] Stephanie: It’s the anti-growth model.

[16:34] Marcus: Yeah, it’s like the anti-growth model and if it’s your only solution, then it means you don’t think people can actually change.

[16:40] Stephanie: You don’t think growth is possible, so it’s not a growth model. All right. So I ask that so that you can begin connecting this idea of attachment and love to the maturity model.

[16:54] Marcus: If attachment is at the heart of the wheel — our attachment to Christ — and God says, ‘If you don’t love the people you can see, how can you say you love me whom you haven’t seen?’ Our love of other people and our love of God are intimately connected. Thus, Jesus says clearly, ‘Love God, love your neighbor.’ That summarizes the whole law, and it really does if you think about The Ten Commandments as a summary of the whole law.

The Ten Commandments can be summed up by love God, that’s the first four commandments, and love your neighbor, that’s the last six commandments. And so this really is a summation of everything. Even Paul in Galatians says the only thing that counts is faith that produces love.

Love is routinely put on the pedestal as the ultimate virtue in Christianity. And the reason for that is that maturity always produces loving behavior. I can kind of measure how mature I am by my capacity and my ability to remain loving under adverse circumstances and with adverse people. So that is a measure of my maturity — my ability to love well regardless of what I’m going through and my ability to love well regardless of what other people are doing to me.

[18:10] Stephanie: This is good. Next episode, we’re going to give an overview of the three levels of breakthrough and the five engines that drive our emotions.

And if you have not yet, dear listener, started reading this book, Breakthrough, I just want to alert you that we have in the link in our descriptions, a free chapter you can download to start reading the book right away. And I want to encourage you to start on your breakthrough journey, if you haven’t already.

It’s a really good book, and I’m not just saying that because he’s my dad. We’re going to just keep pressing into the maturity model and what it looks like to build maturity. So do you have any final thoughts for this episode? Do you have anything you want people to look forward to?

[19:04] Marcus: Yeah. So, you know, nothing is complete without an acrostic. We actually sometimes call the maturity model, the B.U.I.L.D. maturity model. And the reason for that is that B.U.I.L.D. can be used to remember the five strategies, or the five engines, that drive our emotions. And so we’re going to be going through that next time, but I’ll introduce it right now.

Be aware of your body is number one. Two, U, is unleash your beliefs. Let’s not be stuck in our belief system; let’s unleash that. I is increase the joy and my bonding — or my attachments — with other people. Those are all physical engines.

Then we go to the spirit world. L is for listening prayer. How do I listen to God and what he has to say about this? And then D for dealing with demons. How do we get rid of these things? So that’s the model in a nutshell. We’ll be unpacking that in the weeks ahead.

[19:55] Stephanie: Throw those demons in the trash.

[19:57] Marcus: Throw them in the trash.

[19:58] Stephanie: All right. Well, thank you, Father, and thank you all for being with us today.

Thanks for joining us on the trail today. Did you like this episode? Would you like more people to see it? This is the part where I ask you to like, comment, subscribe, and share with a friend.

Do you love this channel? One of the best ways that you can support us is by becoming a Deeper Walk Trailblazer. Thanks again. We’ll see you back on the trail next week.