18: From Victim to Victor

[00:00:00] Stephanie: Season two, episode 18. We did it. We’ve made it to the end of this lessons from the wilderness series. Hello, father.

[00:00:11] Marcus: Hello, daughter. Did we actually do 18 episodes on the wilderness?

Cause episode one of being on YouTube was when we started this series. Wow.

Okay. We barely scratched the surface at 18 episodes.

[00:00:25] Stephanie: Are you serious? There’s so much more to cover and we were just, in some ways it felt like a firehose and in other ways it felt like, wow, we’re barely scratching the surface. There’s so much more we could say and so much more to cover. And that’s okay. Like, everybody go read your Bible and do your own study.

That’s good. We’re here to encourage but before we get into our, our final content for the series, another quick icebreaker.

[00:00:51] Marcus: All right.

[00:00:52] Stephanie: All right. Thanks. So I don’t know how this is going to come across to you, but partly sunny or partly cloudy?

[00:00:59] Marcus: Ah, yes

[00:01:01] Stephanie: So, I envision that as like, partly sunny is, it’s mostly cloudy, but there’s sun, like there’s sunshine, but it’s clouds.

And then partly cloudy is, it’s mostly blue sky sunshine.

[00:01:12] Marcus: I know. I get the idea. I think I would go with partly sunny with you know, fluffy clouds more than the other way around. It sort of depends. You know, the key there is coffee. Like, if I’m at a coffee shop and I’m drinking coffee, then it could be mostly cloudy.

But if I’m out driving around wanting to do something, I like it.

[00:01:32] Stephanie: You like it when there’s sunshine. Yeah, mostly sun. Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I definitely enjoy both, but there, I have a special love for when it’s mostly cloudy and I can still see the sun, but it’s not in my eyes and I can, I love, I love clouds.

[00:01:49] Marcus: I knew that about you.

[00:01:52] Stephanie: Yes, so, let’s just dig into it. We’ve made it to the promised land. We, we, the people of Israel have left behind their, their slave identity. They’ve gone through their boot camp. They have been building up their new covenant identity. Joshua has been teaching us about trust and obey and victory and we’re wrapping up.

[00:02:18] Marcus: We are wrapping up. This is our wrap up session. We’re going to do what? A little review, a little

[00:02:23] Stephanie: hammer home

[00:02:24] Marcus: the core lessons.

[00:02:25] Stephanie: Yeah. And

[00:02:25] Marcus: I, rumor has it, you came up with an acrostic. I’m just like, okay.

[00:02:30] Stephanie: It was totally unintentional. I was just like, oh, how would we summarize this point in one word? So maybe I passed the test.

I am your daughter. I don’t know. There you go. It’s not very desert appropriate though. We’ll get to it. So. Do you want to talk about where this summary came from first or do you want to give the overview?

[00:02:50] Marcus: So this whole wilderness wanderings overview. First time I taught this was when Alaine Pakkala sponsored a conference in Colorado for people who are working with folks who had gone through severe trauma, and it was a DID focused conference. For people who don’t know what that is, that’s dissociative identities or multiple personalities. That kind of issue if you’ve got dissociative identities only happens with severe early childhood trauma. And so she had gathered a significant number of really good speakers and had me be the opening.

So I got it started probably cause I was the more of the professional speaker and they were more of the actual counselors, right? So I did the opening and put all of my notes into a little booklet called the DID Primer, in which I talk about it from a pastor’s perspective, not as a clinician or a medical professional perspective. And in there, I talk about the journey that we see in the Pentateuch. Is so parallel to the journey that I had seen over and over again with people with severe trauma. And so that’s really where it first came out. That’s when I first started teaching that. And frankly, I think it’s the only book right now that actually has this model spelled out in it.

It’s that book, A D. I. D. Primer.

[00:04:19] Stephanie: Yeah. So that’s A D. I. D. primer and it’s at our website right now. But so we’re going to take the four core overview principles that got spelled out in that booklet and do some practical application today. So this is great. Let’s go through as a reminder for the series as a whole, what were these four core areas that we were looking at.

[00:04:44] Marcus: So we start with Exodus and then, I’m sorry, we start with Egypt and then Exodus and then the wilderness and then the promised land. And so Egypt represents slavery, right?

[00:04:55] Stephanie: The world of perpetual crisis.

[00:04:57] Marcus: The world of perpetual crisis, right? And so we often, especially when we’re first introduced to the deeply wounded people with complex trauma.

They often live a world of perpetual crisis, and that’s where they’re living. That’s represented by Egypt. God wants to get them out of that, so He takes them through an exodus experience. But that exodus experience can feel like chaos, because what happens is, once you get the enemy doesn’t like the fact that you just got out of this. And so there’s this counterattack that creates chaos and you find yourself, you know, going through that hole.

[00:05:33] Stephanie: So that’s what we call the entering of the tunnel of chaos.

[00:05:35] Marcus: Yeah. Entering the tunnel of chaos. So in the Exodus story, for me, chaos is embodied in the creature of Leviathan. And in the book of Psalms, we’re told that when God parted the red sea, he killed Leviathan, that there was a bad cause Leviathan is like the chaos monster. And so we see this battle with the chaos monster at the Exodus and God is telling us, don’t be afraid of chaos, right? I can handle this. And then he gets us into the wilderness, which is our boot camp. And now he started to prepare us and say, okay, it’s a time of growth.

And this is a time of testing. It’s a time of preparation to get us ready to go into the promised land, which is really a time when he wants us to be living with the maturity to not be overwhelmed by these battles, to be able to face battles and not return to chaos, to be, you know, face the battles and not forget who we are, but to actually live out of our core identity.

[00:06:31] Stephanie: Yeah. So the wilderness is enrolling in bootcamp and it’s about identity. And then, and then once we get out of the wilderness and we get to Canaan we start building our maturity. And you also draw on the idea of effective ministry. But that would be where we have our majority growth.

[00:06:48] Marcus: So you think about it as somebody whose life is in perpetual chaos and what they go through to get to a point where they are now living a life that there is stability, even though there are battles.

And that these battles are no longer overwhelming them, but they are acting like themselves and staying the same person, not turning into somebody else. They’re, you know, remaining relational. They’re living out the fruit of the spirit. Doesn’t mean they don’t lose it now and then, but they don’t resort back to that chaotic state, right? They maintain an organized personality through it all. So we call that maturity.

[00:07:26] Stephanie: So then let’s go back through each one and expand it more. But first I’ll give my little acrostic.

[00:07:34] Marcus: This is it. Drum roll, drum roll.

[00:07:36] Stephanie: So the first one in the world of perpetual crisis one of the keys that you’re going to talk about is that this is a place where salvation happens, or  if you already have eternal salvation, it’s a surrender, a full surrender to Jesus.

[00:07:53] Marcus: Yeah, the idea here is what is my role when I’m in Egypt? What is my role as somebody who’s currently in slavery? And what I need to do is basically surrender to God enough to say, okay, I will do this and I will cooperate and just like they put the blood on the doorposts, right? There was something for them to do, and it wasn’t a lot.

It was just put the blood on the doorpost, you know, take this step of obedience and start the journey. And so that yeah. That’s surrender. And for some people that first surrender is the becoming a Christian surrender. And for others, it is the surrender of, okay, I’m willing to let God work in my life and start this journey.

[00:08:36] Stephanie: So, so that was good for there. And then I’ll, I’ll just give the quick words and then we’ll go into each one. So the acrostic is SWIM.

[00:08:46] Marcus:  Swim and desert. They go together so well.

[00:08:49] Stephanie: But yeah, so you have Surrender and then you have Warfare and then you have Identity and then you have Maturity, so SWIM.

[00:08:57] Marcus: SWIM. No, and it’s true. So you surrender, and then warfare is that counterattack from the enemy, the chaos monster, if you will. And but we see that God is a warrior, and he defeats the chaos monster, and God is fully capable of winning that war. And then identity, because that’s the point of boot camp. The point of boot camp is tear down your old identity, build up a new identity. And then maturity is the ability to live out of that identity on a consistent basis where you’re not, you know, flipping back and forth constantly.

[00:09:29] Stephanie: So when we’re talking about Exodus and entering the tunnel of chaos and that warfare, one of the things that you pull out is Deuteronomy 8:3 and this idea of humility.

[00:09:40] Marcus: Most of us know this verse from the temptation narratives where Jesus says to the devil who wants him to turn stones into bread. Jesus said, thus says the Lord, right? Quotes from Deuteronomy. Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

But that verse also says in it that God takes us into the wilderness. It’s like, this is what we’re talking about. Where you just moved from Egypt into the wilderness. Why? He said, I’m doing this to humble you and to test you. And I’m like, well, and then to teach you that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

And so what happens is he’s calling us to leave behind the things that we look to for security. Humility. The opposite of humility is where I am in control and I am going to make sure that I have enough food to eat, which is the core metaphor. It’s like, I will be responsible for my survival. And what we see with a lot of, you know, deeply wounded people is that their core identity is I am a survivor and they will do anything to survive.

And what God wants to tear down is that survivor identity so that they can develop a child of God identity that is humble and is trusting God and is not just trying to act lowly, but is actually not relying on themselves for the victories that they’re looking for in life. So it’s a little complex for people to really wrap their heads around. But the idea here is pretty straight. He says, I’m taking you into the wilderness to test, to humble you, to test you and to train you. And so we have in here the core idea of, of what bootcamp is all about. That humbling is we’re going to tear down that old identity.

And the testing is, we’re going to teach you to trust by taking you through all these tests and to teach you, man doesn’t live by bread alone, but by the word of God, when the word of God is what teaches us that we are holy and we should live holy lives.

[00:11:44] Stephanie: And before we get fully into boot camp, I just wanted to also bring out a couple more points from Tunnel of Chaos Exodus realm, which is that for a lot of people, they’ll say yes, and they commit to the healing journey to that surrender. But then when the chaos breaks out, they think, Oh, this isn’t worth it, or I’m doing it wrong, or I failed or whatever. Give us a little bit of perspective on the enemy’s counterattack here and the messiness of getting the journey started.

[00:12:13] Marcus: Yeah, so I’ve seen this over and over again. And I’ll give like a classic example.

There was a person I met with years ago who had a like an inner world where they could see things. And this is quite common with DID. And in this inner world most of her parts were living in a dungeon and Jesus showed up and opened up the doors and offered them a safe place. And the safe place was sort of like a kingdom with a wall around it and an angel protecting it.

Well, there was a clearing and so it’s about that moment where Jesus opened the doors and let them go over there. But for the next couple of years, a large part of what we we re dealing with was the parts didn’t want to stay in the safe place. They kept running back to the dungeon because they felt like that’s where they belong.That’s where they felt at home. They felt like this was who they really were, their true identity. And so there was this chaotic time in that journey where they were going back and forth between the safety of what God was offering in the presence of Jesus and to this familiar dungeon. And you talk about whiplash and back and forth, you know that’s what I mean by chaos.

And so whether people can actually see that happening in their minds or not, a lot of us experience that. And that is that we live a very whiplash life where we are back and forth from, okay, I’m good with God too. I’m the worst person who’s ever lived. You know, I deserve horrible things. And why?

And then due to I’m angry at God and why does he let all these horrible things happen? So I’m back and forth between being super angry with God and totally trusting God. And it’s a lot of whiplash. So that’s what I mean by chaos.

[00:13:55] Stephanie: So in this stage, we need to have grace on ourselves and on people we’re working with and understand that it’s okay that you’re not perfect and we’re on a journey.

[00:14:05] Marcus: Yes. Grace is needed on both sides of that, both from people working with the wounded and for the wounded people toward themselves to understand that, okay this is normal and they’re not going to be here forever.

[00:14:17] Stephanie: Yeah, even sometimes for myself, looking back on my own life, I have to remind myself to have grace on my former self. I’m like, I didn’t know better or I wasn’t as mature then and I went on a journey and that’s okay.

[00:14:33] Marcus: Well even when you get further along every now and then you find yourself Just falling into that hole and you’ve fallen that hole and you’re doing things you haven’t done in years and you’re like, well, you know, maybe I should just quit. Right? That’s always coming from the devil. Like, Oh, this is worthless. This doesn’t work. But that’s just means there’s more of this chaos to be defeated and it’s part of the journey.

[00:14:57] Stephanie: So let’s look a little bit more at boot camp. Boot camp we’ve said is about identity and we’re tearing down the old identity, building up the new identity and it’s a process. We’ve spent a lot of time in boot camp, I think, so I feel like we’ve covered this pretty well, but are there any kind of final thoughts for boot camp?

[00:15:19] Marcus: Again, with this idea that most people, the identity they’re tearing down in most cases is victim, slave survivor. It is an identity that is independent of God.

And this can go one of two directions and it goes in the direction of I’m a survivor. I am capable of it. I can do this on my own and I don’t need God. And it could be a self-reliance and it can be a complete victim mindset that says I have to be rescued constantly because, you know, it’s the only way I’m going to get through life.

And so that one represents sort of an infant level of identity that says somebody else has to come and rescue me. That’s still an infant level identity. And then some have a more cocky attitude like, I don’t need anybody. I can handle this attitude and they can even ping pong back and forth between that.

[00:16:13] Stephanie: Or you can even get skunk narcissism and peacock narcissism.

[00:16:17] Marcus: They are reflected in skunk and peacock narcissism. So what God wants to do is tear that down. Yeah. And it needs to be torn down. And then he wants to build up in biblical terms, this idea that you are holy because I am holy, and the point is, you belong to me, and your identity comes from me.

I’ve had some interesting things happen periodically where demons would speak through people and say things like, they belong to us, right? They, you know, they gave themselves to us. They were dedicated to us. You know, they belong to us. And my response is always, well, before they belong to you, they belong to Jesus because they’ve been his from before the foundation of the world, according to Ephesians one. That has been a very reassuring thing. Like no matter how many generations this goes back, no matter how deep the claim is, I’m like, there is a deeper claim. And that deeper claim is you are mine because I bought you with a price and that took care of it. So there has been this transfer.

The identity is there. Now what we’re trying to do is help people understand how to make that identity the foundation day after day after day after day and not keep it. Flipping back and forth about who they are.

[00:17:32] Stephanie: So then that’s going to move us into Canaan and building maturity.

[00:17:35] Marcus: Exactly. So when you get to maturity, one of the hallmarks of maturity is that I don’t turn into a different person with every emotion that I feel. I remain the same person. And so you can tell that you can have a lot of maturity develop, but they’ve got holes in your maturity that you fall into. And when you fall into that hole, you turn into an infant or a child, but overall we’re growing into maturity. So I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it is more characteristic of our life, right? There is a greater level of stability and that stability manifests itself as. I now live like my, out of my new identity.

[00:18:11] Stephanie: Yeah, you’re still fighting battles. More of your battles are taking ground than you’re not, the more you progress in it. The more you are taking ground and not flipping back into your old identity.

[00:18:28] Marcus: Right. So it’s still a process. Cause you think about it this way, survivor mindset wants to go back to Egypt because it was secure and a victor mindset wants to go take John, you know, tackle giants that take down take ground for the, for the kingdom.

[00:18:42] Stephanie: Mm hmm. Huzzah. All right, we’re, we’re coming up toward the end.Amazing. What would be some good next steps for people who are on their healing journey or have been listening, on the trail with us and say, okay, what’s the next book I should read? What’s the next class I shou d take? What’s the next, I don’t know, whatever. It could be less product based than that.

[00:19:09] Marcus: It’s like you know, this is one of those things where everybody has to start by taking an honest look at themselves and saying, where am I on this journey? You know, am I still in Egypt? You know where do I need to start? And if I’m still in Egypt, then what I need to do for some people, they need to say yes, either to Jesus directly and, and give their life to Christ, or they need to say yes to at least letting Jesus be a part of their journey.

I’ve known several people who started the journey not as Christians, but they said yes to Jesus. being open to God doing something in their life, and it moved in that direction. So you got to take an honest assessment. Where am I at? What’s my first step? If you’re already past that, but you find yourself in the, in this chaotic stage where you’re just really in whiplash mode, back and forth, back and forth, and not living with a lot of stability, that’s discouraging. It’s overwhelming. It feels impossible. So part of what you need there is that’s why you need to remind yourself of who you really are. It’s a time to really focus on truth statements about your identity in Christ. And this is also where having a group of people who can remind you and keep telling you, look, that’s not like you to be that way. That’s not who you are. This is who you are. Let’s live out of that new identity. So anything you could do on your own and with others to reinforce identity is going to be good. You might take a look and go, well, you know, I’m clearly in the bootcamp thing. I’m growing. I’m on that journey.

Then more than ever you need to be in a group of some other people who are doing this, finding some prayer ministers who can be helpful. If you’re looking for a resource to kind of give you some guidance through the whole thing. We are about to release a new resource called the Freedom Course. This is the first time ever that Deeper Walk is offering a self-paced course that you can go through yourself or you can go through with another person or you can go through in a group. It kind of lays out the whole healing journey. So it’s based on Understanding the Wounded Heart book and  it walks you through. It’s got the exercises. It’s got community you can connect to. It’s the most  thorough thing we have ever produced. It is almost ready for release.

[00:21:30] Stephanie: It is coming. It’s gonna be really good. We’ll keep you updated on information and there’s gonna be more to follow where that is. So yeah, very good. So I know what I was gonna ask you. Would you mind just taking a moment leading a prayer for people who maybe need to say yes to Jesus for the first time or to say, okay Jesus, I need help?

[00:22:00] Marcus: Absolutely. We can do that. You know, I often find when you’re first starting off, just having kind of a repeat after me prayer can be helpful. So I’m going to run through a couple of them and you decide which, you know, you can pray them along with me or just pick out the ones that are most relevant to you.

But we’ll start and say You know, God, that I need help, right? That I am in a place in my life where I can’t do this on my own. And if I’m going to get where I know you want me to be, I need your help. So today I want to surrender and as much as I know how. And I want to invite you to enter my heart and to wage war against the enemy and to train me and to bring me to the promised land where I am living the kind of fruitful, mature life that you desire.

And Lord, I am willing to go through what you know I need to go through. And while that might be scary, and I don’t fully understand what I’m asking or saying, I’m giving you permission. I am willing to be willing, and I’m giving you permission. Would you just come into my heart, my life at a deeper level than ever before and guide me on a journey to wholeness in Christ’s name.

[00:23:13] Stephanie: Amen.

[00:23:15] Marcus: Just sort of merged them in.

[00:23:17] Stephanie: All right. So on that note, with the end of the series we are now entering sabbatical mode. You will be on sabbatical for the rest of the summer. So the podcast is going to be entering into sabbatical. Huzzah and blessings on you and Mother. Yeah, hoping that that is a really refreshing and helpful time for you. For what this means for the podcast is now we are going to be doing kind of a fun experiment where we are going to re-release prior series in a long form, which means the identity series or the kingdom worldview series or the FISH series, you know, all of the episodes in one series. We’re gonna edit them together and release those on our normal Monday schedule so that you can revisit a whole topic all at once. I know a lot of people prefer a long form. Some people prefer short form, you know shorter podcasts, but some people prefer long. So we hope this is helpful to you.

And so we’re not totally leaving you while he’s gone. You can have some more content, but also we’re going to take a break.

[00:24:36] Marcus: So if I understand right, then the idea is we’re going back to the very beginning and that first series. And that whole series will now be one extended podcast.

[00:24:46] Stephanie: However long that those episodes together create will be one episode. Yeah, gives people a chance to review or revisit their favorite topics or good. Have you any final thoughts for this series?

[00:25:04] Marcus: Well, you know, every time I go back through here, I remember how much I love the Pentateuch and realize how much I love the stories in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. And I rarely go back into that without fresh insights, fresh perspectives. And it makes sense because in Joshua and in Psalms, we’re told meditate on the Torah. Day and night. Well, the Torah is those first five books of the Bible and there’s just so much richness there. It establishes our worldview.

So clearly I would encourage all of you make sure you take time to read those first five books of the Bible. I’d encourage people to saturate themselves in the reading of the Pentateuch, right? It’s a journey. You’re not going to regret it.

[00:25:54] Stephanie: Excellent. Thank you, and happy sabbatical. Thanks for joining us on the trail today.

Did you like this episode? Would you like more people to see it? This is the part where I ask you to like, comment, subscribe, share with a friend. And do you love this channel? One of the best ways that you can support us is by becoming a DeeperWalk Trailblazer. Thanks again. We’ll see you back on the trail next week.