29: Resilience: Joy & Rest Rhythms

[00:06] Stephanie: Welcome to Deeper Walk’s On the Trail podcast. You are on the trail with father-daughter duo, Marcus and Stephanie Warner. I’m Stephanie and I’ll be talking with my father, Dr. Marcus Warner, as we discuss topics that help you stay on the trail to a deeper walk with God. Episode 29. We’re continuing our Resilience series with a look at rhythms of joy and rest. I’ve been thinking about this series as Building Bounce and Beyond.

Hello, Father.

[00:35] Marcus: Build, Bounce and Beyond… Hello, Daughter. Good to be with you again.

[00:39] Stephanie: Always. How are you doing?

[00:42] Marcus: I’m tired, but you know, aren’t we always? I am not too tired though. We had a nice little break just before we got in here, we are good to go. I can just feel it in my face a little bit like, “Oh, I think I am getting toward the end of the day here.”

[00:59] Stephanie: Do you need another break after Christmas break?

[01:01] Marcus: Yeah, you know how it is. We always need to recover from our vacations.

[01:05] Stephanie: Alas, we are recording this episode pretty close to the prior one, so I can’t report on how well I did in implementing the Building Balance principles you gave from last week. Maybe for the next episode I can come back with a report. I am going to Florida for a class, a one week intensive class coming up really soon. This episode comes out after I have wrapped it up so I will be very tired, but I’m going to implement. It’s a nine to five class.

[01:38] Marcus: Yeah.

[01:40] Stephanie: But it’s about healing.

[01:41] Marcus: Yeah, a nine to five class on emotional healing, that doesn’t sound exhausting at all.

[01:45] Stephanie: I’m really looking forward to it but I’m going to practice some building bounce principles as we go. So in this episode we are looking at the rhythms of joy and rest. Both joy and rest are so important. So let’s talk about joy first and just make sure we’re all on the same page on what we mean here. So what is joy? Let’s start from a brain perspective.

[02:08] Marcus: So from a brain perspective again, last time we talked about the four levels of brain function and all four levels are kind of related to joy. That attachment lights up when I see potential joy or potential fear, but it’ll light up. Then my assessment center will figure out is this potential joy, or is this potential fear, or is this potential bad?  It can only give one of three analogies, this is good, this is bad, or this is scary. Then it goes up to the third level which is that now I’m reading this person, and are they happy to see me? And I’m looking for someone who’s happy to see me. You can see this in babies a lot, right? They have their eyes locked in and what they’re looking for is somebody who’s happy to be with them.

If all that goes well or if it falls within my window of tolerance, then I will get to the top level of my brain function and it’ll be the easiest for me to act like myself. And so because all of that is anchored in attachment we say relational joy is relational happiness. I’m looking for someone who’s happy to be with me. So the brain science of this boils down to something very simple, what my brain craves and what it’s looking for, is the joy that comes from someone who’s happy to see me. And we just call that relational happiness.

[03:19] Stephanie: So joy and happiness, not the same thing or same thing?

[03:23] Marcus: I would say joy is a subcategory of happiness.

[03:25] Stephanie: Okay.

[03:26] Marcus: I heard pastors my whole life say that they are not the same thing and they make a big deal that happiness is related to happenstance, but so is joy. In the Bible the Hebrew word for joy and happiness are the same word. So it talks about when the harvest is abundant. When I’m feeling the joy of an abundant harvest that’s the same as feeling happy because of an abundant harvest. They aren’t that different. So people have tended to over spiritualize joy, and make it like something that can only happen when the Holy Spirit fills you with it. But that really isn’t the point of the fruit of the Spirit.

The point is if the Holy Spirit is operating it should bring joy. But that doesn’t mean that somebody without the Holy Spirit will never feel joy. This is a characteristic of what we should be looking for. I would say again that evangelicals through the years have tended to overemphasize this difference between joy and happiness, and partly because we try to reduce joy to a choice. We try to reduce it to something that is only created by the Holy Spirit. But from a brain perspective and I would say even biblically, the way the Bible talks about it is that joy is a subset of happiness. It is the happiness that comes when I am with somebody who’s happy to be with me, or I’m thinking about somebody who’s happy to be with me.

That’s why even now we can sit here and think about a good friend and feel happy, because you’re just thinking about them. It’s like, “Oh, it would be so cool to see them again right now.”  That’s joy, right? As a grandparent, if a little kid comes wandering into the room you don’t have to say ,”Oh, it’s my grandkid. I better choose to be happy.” It’s like there’s this instantaneous thing that comes up, this relational happiness and that’s what we mean by joy.

[05:13] Stephanie: So talk more about the biblical perspective.

[05:16] Marcus: So the biblical perspective of joy is going back to the Old Testament, and   we see it the most in the idea that there is an abundance of harvest. So David could even say, “That my heart is feeling happiness or joy in your presence, God, the way that I feel at the harvest time.” That’s his analogy. But he also says something interesting in Psalm 16:11 in English it says, “There is joy in your presence, O Lord”, but the Hebrew word for “presence” is actually “face.” So it’s like, there is joy in your face, O Lord. Well, that fits perfectly doesn’t it? Because that’s where we’re looking, I’m looking in your eyes to see if you are happy to see me or not?

So David’s saying when I look in your face I am seeing someone who is happy to see me. You go back to the ironic blessing of numbers, “May God’s face shine upon you,” which is a joyful beaming face. I don’t think he’s saying may I have a Moses experience, where I’m glowing afterwards.  I think he’s saying that there is a joy of shiningness that comes on us because of that. And in the New Testament at Gethsemane when Jesus goes into the garden he asks for three of his closest disciples to go with him, and they let him down.  But why did he even want them with him? He wanted the added emotional resilience, the emotional strength that comes from being with people who are happy to be with you.

When I go through hard times, when I’m going through difficult things, one of the things that gives me resilience is being with other people who are happy to be with me, even as I’m going through the hard thing. And so this connects to God as well. If I have a God who is happy to see me even when I’m going through hard things, I will have more resilience to deal with the hard things. But if I look at God as somebody to be afraid of or if I think God’s upset with me, because I’m not going through this properly or something like that, then I am going to miss out. I will miss out on the emotional resilience that would otherwise be available to me because of that connection with God. The Bible when it’s talking about joy tends to have this relational happiness idea to it. And it is this thing that we find in the face of God and others.

[07:35] Stephanie:  As you’re talking about the harvest, I just had two thoughts. One being that the  harvest is communal, a community event and there’s lots of relationships happening there. And also, I think it was Stefanie’s phrase that she would use throughout her book Building Bounce. Calm, safe and secure or is it calm, safe, connected? But the idea is that we return to safe and secure. The harvest is a bounty of safe and secure and you’re doing it in a communal way.

[08:08] Marcus:  Absolutely, it’s a party. Why do we like parties? We like parties because they boost our emotional capacity. When I am really happy it’s harder to bring me down. That’s the whole point of Pharrell’s song, “Happy.” It’s like, yeah, “You can’t bring me down, I’m too happy right now.”  But there is something to that. When I have a lot of happiness I can handle more emotional weight than when I am lacking it. That’s one of the things that these harvest festivals have in common. And it’s interesting because when God tells the people to take a week for this festival and a week for that festival, the word that he uses there is, “And have joy, do this with joy.” So you can tell that’s not a command like, choose to be happy. It’s more of, I’m throwing a party, I want you to be happy. Be with people you love and eat good food. So I don’t think we need to separate joy and happiness. Look at joy as a subset, I think it helps.

[09:06] Stephanie: Cool. So related and possibly the same answer, I don’t know. So we talked about brain science and we talked about the Bible, is joy in brain science and joy in the Bible the same?

[09:22] Marcus: Most of the time, yes. I would say that because the word joy in Hebrew and the word joy in Greek can have a broader semantic range than the way we use it in English, it can get a little tricky. Like when it uses Chará or Char’en versus Shama or Sama, I forget the Hebrew word at the moment. Those are going to have slightly different semantic ranges. And so because of that they can be translated as joy or happiness depending on the context. And what we’re talking about here is really the use of the English language. So I would say for functional purposes, there’s no significant difference between the way they get used. If there is any difference it would be based on the contextual use of the word.

[10:06] Stephanie: Shaimcha

[10:07] Marcus: Shaimcha, that makes sense. Okay.

[10:10] Stephanie: All right. That has been Hebrew with the Warners.

[10:13] Marcus: It’s the advantage of having a seminary student.

[10:18] Stephanie: I had to double check myself there. Let’s talk more about joy. What is the role of joy in emotional capacity?

[10:28] Marcus: Yeah, that’s a good question. So the role of joy in emotional capacity is not the idea that I’m happy all the time, but that I can actually grow my capacity for joy and my capacity for happiness. I heard stories of people who adopted kids from these Eastern European orphanages where their physical needs were taken care of, but not their emotional needs. And what would happen is the babies and toddlers in this place just learned to stop crying. So everybody assumed they were okay. They’re not crying anymore so they must be okay. What they learned was that their brains were learning  there is no point in crying, they just shut off. And it’s what we would call a dismissive attachment that was formed. And also what happened was that their brain’s capacity for joy didn’t grow. And so when they get adopted people assume that I’m so happy to see this new face, and that they’re going to grow leaps and bounds, but they don’t. And they don’t understand why.

[11:29] Stephanie: All they need is my love.

[11:31] Marcus: All they need is my love, right? And they don’t understand why that isn’t enough. And the answer is because their capacity to receive it doesn’t work. So it’s a little bit like pouring too much water on a dry plant, it overwhelms it. Or why somebody who’s starving can’t just have a feast and be done with it. You actually have to grow your capacity for food, you have to grow your capacity to absorb the water. In the same way we’ve got to grow our capacity to experience joy, especially if we didn’t grow up with a lot of it.

[11:56] Stephanie: When you talk about how you can misread things, somebody could be giving love and it could be misinterpreted as something else, because the wiring or the reading needs help.

[12:09] Marcus: Yeah, because a lot of people who grew up without that foundational joy in their life only know transactional relationships. And so they will misinterpret your attempts at unconditional love as you must want something from me, because that’s the only category their brain has. So that’s going to have to be grown and it’s going to have to be developed over time. The relationship of joy to emotional capacity is actually at the heart of our analogy of “building bounce.” So we would say that for the ball to bounce it has to be filled with air and that air is joy.

And so we need to make sure that we are constantly growing the ball’s capacity to hold more air, and then it can bounce more and more. And so you know, the metaphor breaks down at some point because we don’t want a ball bigger than Mars. Our emotional capacity grows the more often that we experience joy, then being upset, and then get back to joy, and then being upset and then get back to joy. So the more often that our brains go back and forth between those the stronger our capacity gets.

[13:17] Stephanie: Can you give me an example of how I might feel a negative emotion but still feel relational happiness?

[13:23] Marcus: Yeah. So let’s just say that I’m feeling anxious about something. I can be with you, or Ben, or my wife Brenda. Being with somebody who’s happy to be with me can help. And it’s got nothing to do with counseling the anxiety. It’s got nothing to do with anything else but the emotional happiness or the relational happiness that we have. That gives me a little bit more capacity for dealing with that. So the same thing if I’m very sad, like I’ve lost something, it can still be helpful to be with somebody that I know is happy to be with me. And so the relational happiness that comes with the joy of that connection increases my capacity to deal with it. This is one of the reasons why when people grieve, it’s not usually a good idea to just go be alone and be all by yourself, not constantly anyway. You need to be around people who are happy to be with you.

[14:19] Stephanie: Yeah. Well, I’m just thinking several thoughts on this. I’m just thinking of Grandpa Warner’s funeral which is a time of lots of grieving. But there was also so much joy and laughter, people being able to be together and reminisce. And be happy for him frankly, because he was very happy to go to heaven.

[14:43] Marcus: Yeah. It’s been almost a year since he passed and it was really remarkable because we didn’t even have an “official funeral.” We had sort of a come and visit thing and 400 people showed up. For a man who was 97 years old, you just realize how many lives he touched and how much joy those people had in being around each other. And that’s a good example. As a former pastor I’ve done a lot of funerals and there’s as much laughter usually as there are tears at funerals. Because you’re remembering all of the good things. You’re remembering the happy times. And it can be helpful in anything we’re going through to have people around you who help you to remember what there is to be happy about. And what is happy in the midst of all of this anyway.

[15:26] Stephanie: Yes. And even just today I was having some struggles and my wonderful parents came and listened to me. They validated me and gave me a plan for the future to say, “Look, it’s gonna be okay,” and got me back to joy.  I’m very close to this emotion right now because I was feeling very overwhelmed. I had many mixed strong emotions but I also felt genuinely happy to be with my parents through it, I was able to feel that relational happiness.

[16:02] Marcus: Yeah, we’ve all been there. There is something stabilizing about knowing you’re not alone. So I’m glad we could be there today.

[16:14] Stephanie: Yes. Thank you, thank you very much. Very good, so let’s move on. Let’s start easing our way toward rest. So I’ve heard you say the flip side of joy is peace. So talk about that.

[16:27] Marcus: So joy is a high energy emotion such as, “I am so happy to see you and it fills me with energy, this is awesome.” But after that I am quiet. I’m still happy to be with you, but let’s be quiet together, let’s just be at peace. So peace is that feeling like everything’s going to be okay. I may not have solved any of my problems but I just have this sense of, “I’m going to be okay, it’s going to be okay.”  I can rest and I could be happy to be with you in a low energy state. So when I’m happy to be with somebody in a low energy state we call that peace. So our peace comes from God.

Again, not because he’s the only source of peace in our lives but because that’s the nature of who he is. That when we’re around God he brings peace. Jesus is the prince of peace. He helps to let us know, “Trust me, trust in the Lord, it’s all going to be okay. I will take care of you and you can rest.” And that’s why as we transition from joy into peace and then into this idea of rest, we see that rest in a biblical idea is almost an act of worship. In resting we are trusting that if I am not super busy all of the time God will still take care of me.

[17:47] Stephanie: And trust is just innately relational.

[17:49] Marcus: Trust is an innately relational word, yes. In fact, I remember talking to people who are like, “Where’s attachment in the Bible?” One of the odd things to me is that the word relationship doesn’t actually occur in Greek or Hebrew. So there are metaphors for it but they don’t actually just have the word relationship. And yet we’re constantly talking about how relationship is at the heart of our faith. And it’s true but that’s not the word. So I’m looking for where do we see attachment, where is that? And I think some of the stronger words are trust, know, and love. Right? God says, “Love the Lord your God.” Well, that’s a bonding word, right? And he says, “Trust me.” Well that’s  an attachment. Trusting, attachment, safe, calm, and connected. And this idea of knowing somebody is the idea of intimacy that I know you well.

[18:42] Stephanie: Don’t forget walking with God.

[18:44] Marcus: Yeah. So walking with God is also the classic metaphor which gave name to our ministry right. A deeper walk with God is a deeper relationship with him. And that’s kind of the core metaphor that we go with here.

[19:00] Stephanie: Where are some places where you see rest as a major theme in the Bible?

[19:04] Marcus: I start with Genesis one. Genesis one is really a redemption story about how a world that was formless and empty was given form and was filled. So it was no longer empty, it was blessed and brought to a place of rest. And so in that sense it’s a redemption story because it went from chaos to rest. And so you see that God is, in a sense, setting us up. There is a pathway to rest and blessing in your life and it’s me. So trust me, obey me, let’s walk through this thing together, and I will get you where you need to go.

And so rest starts in the creation story and then it goes into the Torah. And what was God’s mandate? If you’re my people you’re going to rest on the Sabbath and that was a really foreign idea. You are not only going to rest 52 sabbaths a year but there’s three other weeks you’re going to take off of work, and you’re going to rest. So he had 70 days of rest built into a calendar, which is exactly 20%. And there’s just other rhythms of rest that are built in here. I think the very fact that the day started in the evening and ended in the evening was a way of modeling rest. Like, okay, your day is over now it’s time to start going into quiet so that you can get up.

And I like the way Dr. Wilder puts this in Pandora Problem. He said, “You had a chance to join God within his work.” And so we see that God is the one who is always working, not me. He tells me to rest partly because he wants me to understand that he’s not there helping me get what I want out of life. He is at work and I am joining him in his work. I love the way Henry Blackaby put it, “Where are you at work God and  help me to join you where you are already at work.” And that’s core to this idea of rest.

[21:02] Stephanie: One of the things that struck me just this past fall semester was the land resting. And how many times throughout the Old Testament we see the importance of, “And the land found rest. The land was at rest.” Or, “Do this so that the land can rest.” And I remember in one class that my professor hadn’t even taken us into the preaching mode of, “How does this apply to me?” We were just talking about agriculture in the Old Testament and it was just like Jesus was sitting beside me just chilling, with his arm around me looking at me like, “Do you hear this?” “Do you hear this?”

And I was like, “I hear you, I’m sorry.” All these rules about do not milk this land for all it is worth. Do not, you know, cut all the corners of the field. And some of that is for the land’s sake. And some of that is for taking care of the people who are less fortunate and taking care of the community. But it was just like, yeah, do not milk the land, let the land rest.

[22:16] Marcus: That’s where gleaning comes in. It’s one pass across, don’t get every last grain you can and don’t harvest the corners. And it is perhaps the best picture of margin  in scripture, the idea of gleaning. The idea here is that margin is necessary for me to be able to take care of other people. If I am at my max just taking care of myself then I have nothing to give other people. And so in this rest is also God’s desire for us to take care of others. We can also separate out the child level maturity thing here. A child can only take care of one person at a time. So usually I can take care of myself and not you.

But sometimes in reverse maturity or upside down maturity you have a child who can only take care of other people’s needs, and can’t take care of their own. At the Adult level maturity when we’re talking about rest and all this, there’s enough for me and there’s some to share. I can take care of me and there’s something left over to take care of you too. And that’s why margin is so important, and why rest and rhythm are so important when it comes to living with peace, which is that low energy side of joy..

[23:35] Stephanie: So let’s start bringing them together unless you have more to say about rest. What does a rhythm of joy and rest look like?

[23:45] Marcus: So a rhythm of joy and rest. I love that there was evening and there was morning day one, that the day starts at 06:00 p.m. I think one of the things that really brought this home was the show The Chosen, that was about the Sabbath. And you saw the ladies all going to market on Friday afternoon and everybody getting things ready. There was a sense of anticipation, it’s almost six, it’s almost six, it’s almost the Sabbath.

[24:10] Stephanie: “Do you see the first star in the sky?”

[24:12] Marcus: Yeah. “Do you see the first star in the sky?” So what it does is it creates the joy of anticipation. It creates a relational connection because you’re expecting to have a communal dinner with other people, which means I’m not alone and I’m with people who are happy to see me. There’s going to be a connection with God and there’s going to be a day off from work, and there’s going to be rest. And then you get back to 06:00 p.m. the next day and you’re starting to prepare for the next day. I got to start getting everything organized and ready so when I wake up in the morning I can just go.

And that’s a good model of rhythm, right? That’s a good model of how this works. I think sometimes when we think of starting our day in the morning or starting our day at midnight, those things are not actually that helpful, when it comes to creating rhythm to the way that we live.

So here’s a story I got from How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie. He talks about Charles Schwab who most of us know the name because of the brokerage. But the person Charles Schwab, back in the early days of the 1900’s was brought into a high end corporate setting and he says, “Let me meet with each of your managers. I’m going to give them one tool and when we’re done you can pay me what you think it’s worth.”

So the next week the owner sent him a check for $10,000 in 1920s money. So that’s like $100,000 or more today. And his one tool was simply this, he told every manager that before they left work to write down the top six things, in order, that they needed to get done the next day. What’s number one? What’s number two? The top six, that’s it. That piece of paper is sitting on their desk when they leave.

And I think that there’s a picture there. So when they get there in the morning they’re not trying to figure out what they’re going to do with their day. They already know I’ve got to start my day getting this done and knocking these things out. I think that’s also a picture of rhythm, a picture of rest. Because I’m prepared and I know what I have to do I can now rest knowing that I’ve gotten some preparation.

That’s why sometimes when I have trouble sleeping it’s been helpful to make a to do list, just to list out all the projects. This is why I’m having trouble quieting my brain because I’m trying to hold on to too much. So those kinds of rhythms I think can be helpful to us. Obviously there’s a whole lot more we can say about it but that’s the start.

[26:29] Stephanie: We are coming toward the end of our time here. You mentioned last week about joy camps.

[26:36] Marcus: Yeah.

[26:36] Stephanie: And I don’t know if you’re going to be talking more about that at the conference?

[26:43] Marcus: We can touch on this multiple times. This core concept of maturity and emotional capacity I learned from Life Model and Jim Wilder. His core illustration that I first came across was Joy Mountain and Joy Camp. And the idea here of a joy camp is that when you go camping the first thing you do is you set up the camp and you get everything ready. Then you give instructions to people. So you tell the children,“You can’t go anywhere your parents don’t take you.” To the older kids and the teenagers you might say, “Okay, you can go to the lake but that’s as far as you can go.” And then to the adults, you’re like, “All right you can go wherever you want to go, just be back by eight.” And so the idea is that by eight everybody is back and they’re in the camp.

And in some ways it doesn’t matter whether you had a good day or a bad day, you’re going to be together with people who are happy to see you. And whether you’re telling stories of how everything went wrong or whether you’re telling stories of how everything went right, you’re doing it with laughter, with people smiling, and with people commiserating with you. The only thing that’s really going to ruin it is if it gets to be like 8:30 or 9:00 and somebody’s missing. And part of joy camp is that we want everybody to be there with us. We want our family, we want our friends, and we want everybody to be back in joy camp at the end of the day. And it’s hard on us when they’re not. So the best we can do sometimes, is make sure that we’re there.

But we also want to do everything we can to make sure, especially in our families, that everybody is okay when they’re  getting ready for bed. So I love that analogy. The idea is that I go out on Joy Mountain, I overcome obstacles, I have adventures, I do things, and I come back to be with my people at the end of the day.

So the best analogy I’ve seen of this was Duck Dynasty. And so while people sometimes tend to roll their eyes at me, in Duck Dynasty every show ends with multiple generations of people around a single table, laughing and happy to be together. It doesn’t matter whether they had a good day or a bad day, they know they’re going to be with their people at the end of the day. And I think that was part of the attraction of that show, people longed for that. They’re like, “I wish I had a family like that where multiple generations could be happy to be together on a daily basis. That’s a really cool thing.”

In doing research for the books on joy that I’ve helped to write, one of the things I found was that the happiest cultures in the world are the ones that have this rhythm built in. They have a relational rhythm built in where the people know that on a weekly basis they’re going to be with extended family, and they’re going to be with a multiple generation of people who are happy to be together.

So that’s like that Sabbath thing we were talking about, where every week you’re going to be with extended family and friends who are happy to be together. That’s kind of built into most of the cultures that have a strong sense of emotional resilience. One of the problems in America I think is that we’ve lost that in most segments of our culture. And so as a result we have tended to put all of the onus on being an emotionally resilient person on me as an individual. And we don’t understand the importance of a generational community for building that resilience.

[29:45] Stephanie: So much.

[29:46] Marcus: There’s a lot there.

[29:48] Stephanie: Next week we’re going to start talking about the ABC”s of Building Bounce. But for now, any final thoughts for this episode?

[29:55] Marcus: I’m looking at the cover of the book Building Bounce, How to Grow Emotional Resilience that Stefanie Hinman and I wrote. Looking at the fact that we have an old beat up ball that is bouncing in a splash of water, and I know you added the splash of water which I thought was a nice touch to the picture. But the old beat up ball was important because we didn’t want it to be a brand new shiny ball because a lot of us feel kind of beat up. And the question is, “Is there hope for me who’s had kind of a beat up life? Is there hope for me to still have joy?”  Or does the fact that I went through so much abuse and that I went through so much trauma that I didn’t get what I needed, does that mean that I’m doomed to live the rest of my life without joy?

And the answer is no. And that’s the good news that your brain can grow the capacity for joy for as long as we live. There are specific skills that grow into specific habits that create that level of joy. And so we want to introduce what those are and how we do them. And then as Christians, we have the added benefit of being able to do them with a family of believers and with God himself, who is the ultimate “happy to see you person.” And so that’s kind of where we’re going with this. We want to help people understand that there is hope. Even if I have been living a low joy life until now there is hope for building these skills moving forward.

[31:15] Stephanie: Amen. Thank you, Father, and thank you all for joining us on the trail today. Deeper Walk International is a nonprofit organization and we partner with people like you in order to do what we do. Some are on the trail with us as official Trailblazers who commit to donating $25.00 or more per month. Because of our Trailblazers we are able to provide free or discounted resources like this free podcast, or our video streaming platform The Learning Library Basic. Also the free January conference where John Eldridge from Wild at Heart will be joining dad to speak about emotional resilience. That’s coming up at the end of the month.

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