31: The Tough Love of Jesus (An Easter Series, Part 2) | S4E31

(00:00) Stephanie Warner: Welcome to Season 4, episode 31. Hello, Father.

(00:04) Marcus Warner: Hello, Daughter.

(00:07) Stephanie Warner: Good to be with you this fine April.

(00:011) Marcus Warner: It is, it’s always fun to do this with you.

(00:16) Stephanie Warner: Yay, I love it, I love it. Before we get into our Easter musings, I want to make sure that I remind everybody of the fun Healthy Community Conference online happening April 25th. This is going to be with Michel and Claudia Hendricks, Chris and Jen Coursey, and Nik and Kristy Harrang. And we are going to also have a bonus session from Marcus Warner. Father, I would love for you to talk a little bit more about what to expect from this conference. I also want you to talk about why it’s a bonus session, where you are right now, and where you will be when this releases.

(00:58) Marcus Warner: Yeah. I am currently at home in my home office, but I think when this airs, I will be in Europe. I am going on behalf of Deeper Walk to do training with our ministry partner over there, TCM International. They have a school that offers master’s and doctoral level degree programs, and they teach the Deeperwalk Prayer Ministry certification  as part of their curriculum. So I’m going over there to teach some of their alumni, some of their faculty. I’ve also got a unique opportunity to meet with Ukrainian pastors who had to flee that country and we’re having a conference in Vienna for them. So I have five to seven days of teaching and some preaching and a lot of travel and then after that we’ll take a little vacation. So I’ll still be over there and partly because of that, I’m gonna pre-record a session for this conference because I’ll be gone during the time it airs.

(02:04) Stephanie Warner: Yes, so tell us more about the conference.

(02:08) Marcus Warner: So the conference is A Healthy Community. Everywhere I go people ask me about the book, The Other Half of Church, which was co-written by Jim Wilder and Michel Hendricks. And so we’ve invited Michel to come and to talk about some of the things he’s learned from going around to churches and talking about the implementation of this. What are some core challenges and things? His wife is also very active in this kind of ministry. So we’re going to have a panel in the final round with the husbands and the wives together.

We’ve also invited Chris and Jen Coursey because relational skills and community is kind of the heart of what they do training in.

And then Nik and Kristy, right? A lot of people don’t know this, but  Kristy basically is like the director of operations over at THRIVEtoday. I’m not sure of the exact title, but she and Nik hold similar positions for different organizations. They are going to join. They have a ton of experience in working with small groups and working with community groups.

Part of this is there’s a difference between being a healthy community and a heart-focused community. You can be heart-focused and unhealthy, which sounds odd, but you can be heart-focused in a toxic way. There are a lot of places that will tell you they are focused on the heart and this is a healing community, but they’re not doing it in a healthy way. And you can be a healthy community and not necessarily heart focused. There’s some overlap. So we want to talk about healthy community specifically. Like, what does it take to make sure we’re building something healthy? And then I’ll also build in a few elements of how heart focus fits into all that.

(03:47) Stephanie Warner: It’s gonna be good. And hey, if you can’t make it live on April 25th or you’re hearing this after the fact, good news: you can catch the recording, and this is a name your own price event. We don’t want money to get in the way of anybody coming. You can visit through the links in the description to learn more and register. All right Father, this week we are continuing our Easter musings on a topic that I don’t normally consider to be an Easter topic, which is tough love. And so I’m excited to get into this with you. And we’ll just do as we did last time, where you take the lead and I’ll just chime in, but this is your devotional.

(04:32) Marcus Warner: All right. I was asked to write a few devotionals about Holy Week and  last week on Palm Sunday was one. This week I was thinking about, during Holy Week the confrontations Jesus had. He turns over the tables of the money changers, and is very angry, right? He’s turning over the tables of the money changers. He gets into debates with religious leaders, he calls them a brood of vipers, and tells them they’re on their way to hell right in front of everybody out in the temple grounds. He’s as bold and as clear as we ever see him. And it’s confusing to some people because Jesus seems pretty angry here and he seems like, where’s the loving Jesus at? How is this connected?

So this brings us to the idea of tough love. It’s like, why was Jesus giving messages of doom and calling people out and getting in their face and overturning money changers? He didn’t go to the temple and was like. I was just being nice to everyone and they attacked me. No, he was coming out, right? So he was never more bold and never more clear than in these final days of his life before the crucifixion and resurrection. In fact, somebody sent me a text about it once. They’re like, well, isn’t rare leadership about remaining relational and acting like yourself even when you have big emotions? Did Jesus do that?

Didn’t he kind of lose it when he was flipping the tables? And I’m like, he was actually modeling rare leadership when he did this because he was thinking about them when he did it. He was being relational and acting like himself because he says, it’s like me to want to take care of you. And it is like me to want to get your attention when something here is really going to be bad for you. That’s what he’s doing here. He is kind of getting in their face. The words and actions of Jesus may seem harsh, but in reality, what he was doing was loving. And so I just want to explain how. He kicked over the money change tables and he was calling them children of the devil who are on their way to hell. How is that loving?

And the answer is, that this was their last chance. This was it. He was about to leave. His earthly ministry was done. Even though he knew the outcome, this was in a sense the right thing to do. And that was to just put all the cards on the table and let them know the consequences that would come from their rejection of him. And that what you are doing is wrong. Everything about this is wrong. It will end in judgment. It’s going to end in disaster for you. And he told them the parable about the vineyard and how the owner sent servants who were like the prophets. And then finally they sent the son and they ended up killing him and what do you think the master is going to do when they kill the son? He’s going to come and destroy this place and he’s going to give it to other people.

Some of the clearest, boldest, and harshest things that he said, he said during this week. And it was because this was the most loving thing to do, was to try to shock them into taking a second look at where they were at. And so that’s what made it loving. It’s not loving to say, I’m going to be nice and polite and meek and mild while you go to your death. It’s much more loving to try to do something to get people’s attention and shock them into taking a second look at what’s going on.

And so I say that love compelled Jesus to do and to say the things that he did, trying to get them to reconsider their actions, even though he knew it wouldn’t work. He did it because it was the right thing to do, which we often see God doing and Jesus doing. So that’s why it seems strange, right? That the kindest thing Jesus could do was to publicly say to the scribes and Pharisees, you snakes, you brutal vipers, how will you escape being condemned to hell? But it was. That was a kind thing to do in the sense that he was trying to save them.

So that was helpful at multiple points for me. Jesus didn’t just lose it, he didn’t just flip out. We think about the anger of God. God isn’t angry the way we’re used to seeing, like a drunk dad getting angry. He was angry at what they were doing to other people who didn’t deserve to be hurt. He was angry at what they were doing to themselves. And he was angry at how upside down all of this was, and what it meant about the relationship that he wanted to have with them, but couldn’t have because of what they were doing.  So yes, there’s anger there, but this is a great illustration of acting like yourself and still doing the right thing even when you’re angry.

(09:51) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. I just think about other instances where… usually when we talk about when Jesus was acting like himself in that way, like he was so angry and he healed someone. Or, he’s on the cross and he’s taking care of his mother and forgiving. I think that we do shy away from the Old Testament God and his anger, it can be scary. I do want to circle back to the scariness. I also just want to say a note on the consistency of God throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. When you see him he is angry when people are abused, and he is angry at injustice, and he is angry at oppression. But then, you see multiple accounts throughout scripture where those abusers are dealt with. And then also you get multiple accounts where those abusers are dealt with, but then actually repent. And there’s a crazy redemption story.

And so I think that you’re not getting a God who is unwilling to step into the suffering and deal with things in a just way and also in a merciful way. And so… It is like him to be just and merciful. You can talk about that if you were wanting to talk about that. I also want you to circle back around to the people who are like, yeah, but I grew up with a snake and a spider. Seeing Jesus being angry is still scary to me. I’ve seen people justify abuse as tough love, or I’ve seen people justify, blah, blah, blah.  I’d love for you to just address that too in whatever order you want.

(11:48) Marcus Warner: If you think about it, Jesus wasn’t scarring people and shaming them just to get it out of his system. What he was doing was trying to correct them. So let me explain this from a verse in the Bible all right, not just from a story, but let’s go to a verse. So this is from the book of Revelation, chapter 3, verse 19. And honestly, you gotta do this one in the Greek. There’s no way that English can quite capture it. So I’m going to walk us through this verse in Greek real quickly. Revelation 3:19. Now, most of us know Revelation 3:20, which is, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anybody hears and lets me in, I’ll come and dine with him and he with me.”. And that is the beautiful verse of inviting Jesus in. But the verse that leads into Revelation 3:19, he says, everyone that I love, that’s the English. Everybody that I love.

But the word love there isn’t Agape. The word love there is Philia. Philia is from Philadelphia. It’s the brotherly love. I look at it like, those I have a bond with that are really my people. You and I, we’re friends, we’re connected. He said, those that I love, that kind of bonded connection, he says, I rebuke. Now at first in English, that’s like, whoa! We think of rebuke as somebody losing it, getting mad, telling us off, and screaming at us. That’s not what he means. The word just means, I call out when you’re on a path that’s going to do you harm. I will correct you. I will rebuke you. So to rebuke somebody isn’t just to say, you’re ticking me off.

To rebuke somebody is to say, you’re on the wrong path. You’re doing the wrong thing. If you keep doing what you’re doing it’s going to end really badly for you. So the core idea behind this word in Greek is to correct someone. And that makes sense. Those who I love that I have a deep bond with I correct them, like, no, I can’t let you stay on this path. So I think back to when you were kids. I think I probably did this even more with Ben than you, but it was, I love you, I want you to be successful. I want you to have lots of friends. I want you to have all these opportunities, but what you’re doing right now isn’t going to get you there. It needs to be corrected. Parents correct out of love where they’re supposed to.

Now sometimes parents just correct out of their immaturity and their trauma and all the other stuff, and it’s really nasty. What’s supposed to happen is that because I love you, because I want what’s best for you, I have to correct what you’re doing right now because it’s going to end badly. That’s what Jesus was doing in each of these episodes. He then says, I’m going to train you. So again, in English, literally in the King James it says, I’m going to rebuke and chasten you.

Well, chasten almost sounds like I’m going to beat you. But what the word actually means there is the Greek word for training a child. It’s paideia. You’ll know the word. It comes from the idea that there was a servant in the home whose specific job was mentoring a child and teaching them all the life skills that they were going to need. I picture it this way, he’s like, I’m going to correct you because I love you. Then we’re going to go back to the basics like I would with a little child. I’m going to gently instruct and teach you and train you up so that you can get this right in the future, so that you end up in a good place.

And then we get to, so be zealous, be passionate, and repent from the thing I’m telling you to correct and invite me in. Now you get to Revelation 3:20, invite me in, let’s dine together. Let’s fellowship together. And during that time, I’ll kind of help you understand how you really ought to be handling this. So in the same way Revelation 3:19, if you’re just reading it, especially like in the King James, it sounds pretty harsh. I love you, so I’m going to rebuke and chastise you. Therefore, you better repent. You know, those are trigger words for a lot of people.

(16:19) Stephanie Warner: Right. Because a lot of people have had the verse weaponized in that way. And so that’s why sometimes it can also be a booby trap.

(16:32) Marcus Warner: Yeah, it’s one of the reasons that we go back to the Greek here to help defuse some of it for us. To say, no, that actually makes perfect sense because I love you. I  have to correct this path, but I’m going to gently instruct and train and help you get on the right path, just like a good parent would do with their child. And so I’m knocking on the door and I’m asking you to let me in, and let me help you with this. And that’s kind of the context for Revelation 3:20. It’s what Jesus was offering in that last week, but people refused him and didn’t want it. They wouldn’t repent. They wouldn’t listen. They rejected it and the only option left for them then was to go through the judgment that was awaiting, that he was trying to save them from.

(17:24) Stephanie Warner: Yeah, he wasn’t just being reactionary out of blind rage or something. He was… trying to lovingly have a wake-up call.

(17:33) Marcus Warner: Yeah, the good news here is that’s why we call it tough love. Jesus was kind and Jesus was the king of tough love. And tough love isn’t for tender-hearted people who are already desperate to please their father. They don’t need tough love. Tough love is for the hard-hearted kid who actually needs to be broken before it’s too late. And that’s what Jesus was doing with this.

This was not him getting angry with the people who are already trying their best to follow him. This was him dealing with hard hearted, stubborn, and rebellious people who needed to experience brokenness before it was too late. And so we have to get the audience context correct on these things sometimes, or we will read it as, you never know when Jesus is going to get angry at you. And that’s not what’s going on. It’s very specific to the point.

(18:36) Stephanie Warner: And I think he was also calling out leader to leader too. There is a love for them as people that they would need to be woken up, but also there is a judgment of leader to leader. Like, hey, you’re leading my people astray. I think there are multifaceted things going on there too.

(18:55) Marcus Warner: More than ever, he was stepping into his true identity as look, I am the creator of the universe. I am the promised Messiah. I am the judge who is going to call people back from the grave on the last day before whom they’re going to have to give account. And who are you to say that I am not who I say that I am? He’s never been more clear and bold about his identity. Like this is who I am. This is not a debate between equals. Even King David said of the Messiah, he’s my Lord. So I am King David’s master. I’m the one that King David bowed down to and proclaimed king. Almost like, I don’t make a big deal out of this, but let’s understand clearly what the pecking order actually is. He’s the king of the universe.

(19:54) Stephanie Warner: Meekness is strength held back.

(20:01) Marcus Warner: Exactly. Meekness is strength held back and Jesus was like, I’m still holding back, but let’s be honest here.

(20:11) Stephanie Warner: Mm-hmm. Yep. This is good.

(20:14) Marcus Warner: And it comes into a clear perspective when Jesus is talking to Pilate. He’s like, don’t you think I can call as many legions of angels as I need to come down here right now and deal with this? I’m not here because I don’t have power. I’m not here because I am weak. I’m here because this is where my father’s asking me to be, and I am an obedient son. So I love the fact that it means that God loves me. What’s comforting to me in this is God loves me enough to not let me just go to my own destruction. God loves me enough that if I’m heading somewhere that’s really to my own destruction, he knows how to get my attention and call me to repentance before it’s too late. And that’s real love. You want somebody who’s not going to sit back and do nothing.

(21:06) Stephanie Warner: Yeah. Well, and once again, we talked about this in the last episode that foreknowledge isn’t the same as foreordaining. Even though he knew a lot of these were not going to have a last minute change of heart and not crucify him, but he still did it anyway.

(21:24) Marcus Warner: Yeah, because it was the right thing to do. And that’s what you see. The right thing to do here is to make sure that they have every opportunity. And I sometimes think of Lot being rescued from Sodom and angels literally had to grab him by the hand and make him leave. It’s like, come on guy. A reason that I bring Sodom up is that God gave them every chance, even though He knew they wouldn’t pass. He still did the right thing. He sent angels to investigate and  just to confirm, yes, they really are as sinful as the reports say. Yes, this is as bad as what I know it to be.

So he does the right thing many times. And part of that is sending people to confirm. He sends people to warn others. He had Noah preach for 120 years, even though he knew they wouldn’t repent. He sends Isaiah to a rebellious people and says, I’m calling you to go and preach to a people who are never going to listen to anything you say. And that happens. God still does the right thing. He does the right thing and the loving thing, even when it’s hard.

And it’s not what people want to hear. And that’s difficult for people pleasers who just think being nice is the answer to everything. I err on that a lot. I’m just going to be so nice that there won’t be any problems. But that’s just people pleasing. So there is a time and a place. And Jesus is really modeling a high level of maturity in the way that he is handling these things.

(23:17) Stephanie Warner: I’m laughing because as you were describing the prophets my brain was like, and then there’s Jonah who is sent to the people who will repent, but he is the unrepentant one, but God’s still gonna use him. He’s just gotta mix it up every now and then. Okay, I could easily digress. I’m going to focus back. I guess as we’re wrapping up this episode, will you dwell on maybe some takeaways in terms of somebody hearing about Jesus and his tough love. What are you hoping people will take away on maybe a more practical level? I mean, it’s all practical, but you know what I’m saying.

(24:04) Marcus Warner:  I get it. I was one of those people who was a very sensitive kid and I’m coming across these stories and Jesus was kind of scary to me because of them. And I’m like, well, is he going to get mad at me? Is he going to tell me I’m a snake? What’s going on? He felt fickle to me as a sensitive little kid because I didn’t understand the audience in the context of the things that were going on. So I just took everything in the Bible as if it was directed right at me.

And I’m trying to save people from that a little bit and understand that you’ve got to read the context of who Jesus is talking to, and why he is talking to them the way that he is. Because he would not talk to sensitive followers of his who were trying their best to follow him that way. He was trying to get the attention of somebody who was about to go in a very bad direction. He did the same thing with Peter when he said, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” He’s trying to save Peter from so embracing a narrative that it was going to undermine and set him up for failure and for heartache in the future.

And so that’s why I say sometimes these shocking things are done out of compassion for somebody to try to get their attention and save them from something difficult later. God is never doing it just because he’s lost it and he’s having a temper tantrum. So I think it’s important for us to understand, it helps us understand the heart of God.

(25:43) Stephanie Warner: Yeah, that’s really good. Well, we are going to do at least one more episode lingering on Easter before starting our next book study, both of which I am excited for. And I just want to remind everybody, don’t forget about the Healthy Community Conference. Go check that out. And thank you once again for helping us stay on the trail with you. Father, any final thoughts for this episode?

(26:12) Marcus Warner: Well, I think our next series is Building Bounce, right?

(26:17) Stephanie Warner: That’s the plan.

(26:19) Marcus Warner:  That’s the plan, that’s good, because I think we could all probably use some bounce in our lives. It helps me to dive into these scriptures again and again, because sometimes you learn these stories as kids and you have a child’s view of what was going on. It’s important as an adult to go back and read the stories again and to ponder them from other angles, and to understand the capacity of God, in a sense. His capacity to do hard things in the name of love.

That’s what we see over and over and over again throughout Holy Week is Jesus doing the hard thing because he loves people. It really is humbling to see everything, not just on the cross, but even leading up to it. The willingness to put up with what people said about him and how they treated him and the betrayal, and how he conducted himself throughout. It’s just a remarkable example of somebody willing to do the hard thing because of love. And it’s worth meditating on.

(27:33) Stephanie Warner: Amen. See you next week.