12: This Is Your Brain on Fear

[00:00] Stephanie: Season 3, episode 12. Today, we are going to be continuing our Increase Your Joy Bonds series. Hello, Father.

[00:08] Marcus: Hello, Daughter. My joy bonds are already increasing.

[00:11] Stephanie: Oh, yay. Being with you is always a joy. And yeah, I’m excited for our topics today. It could be a little bit of a downer because we’re talking about fear bonds and attachment styles, but I hope that our conversation can illuminate some things and give some hope for some things.

So last week, we started talking about increasing our joy bonds, which is part of the B.U.I.L.D. acrostic in your book, Breakthrough!. And, yeah, we talked about this infrastructure in our brains that is the joy elevator and how our brain runs on joy and how we can get stuck at different levels. Or if we make it all the way through, we get our whole brain and we’re all functional. So this week, let’s talk about this concept of fear bonds versus joy bonds. What do we even mean by that?

[01:13] Marcus: Yeah, I had never heard those terms until I first heard Dr. Wilder teaching on this, watching videos of a conference he had done in Iowa back in the early 2000s. And I had never heard of either one. I had never heard of a fear bond or a joy bond. And I’m like, what in the world is he talking about? I had never heard of attachment theory, had never heard any of this stuff. And so it’s a completely legit question, because a lot of us don’t grow up with this kind of perspective.

But in a nutshell, the idea of a bond is an attachment. And the idea is that the deepest craving that I have is that I want to be with someone who I feel safe with, who I feel connected to, and who I think is happy to be with me. And that’s just a deep, innate craving that we all have. And so I’m specifically looking for an attachment with somebody who is safe in the sense that I can be myself with them and be at rest.

One of the ways I’ve heard Dr. Wilder explain it is that my brain naturally wants to be at rest. It doesn’t want to have to work super hard at my relationships. I want to be able to rest around people. But if I can’t rest around you, then what’ll happen is my brain will try to figure out another approach. And sometimes that approach is to perform for you and try to be what you’re expecting me to be.

But if I have to perform and put on an act and try to be just who you want me to be in order for you to like me, that’s a lot of work. And that’s a fear bond. It can escalate into where I just don’t like you, and I’m not afraid to let you know I don’t like you. And it could just take a lot of different forms from there.

So a joy bond is basically one in which I do feel safe, I do feel secure, and I do feel like you’re happy to be with me, and I don’t have to put on an act. That’s a joy bond. A fear bond is one in which I feel like I’ve either got to pretend to be somebody I’m not for you to like me, or I don’t care if you like me anymore because I can tell you don’t really want me around.

[03:22] Stephanie: Can you think of an example where oh, you know, here’s what this example looks like, joy bonded. Here’s what this example looks like, fear bonded.

[03:32] Marcus: Yeah. So, you know, marriage is a classic example. And that is, when we’re all done with this, we’ll go home. I’ll get to see your mom to whom I’ve been married for a few years. Yeah, just a few. 34 now, I think, and 35 coming up.

And so what happens is I could anticipate going home with fear or motivate myself to go home with fear and go, well, I better get home before Brenda’s really upset with me. Or I guess I have to go home, you know or she’s going to be upset. So fear in that case has to do with how I’m motivating myself to go and see her.

On the other hand, I could be like, oh, yeah, I can’t wait to go see her, because we’re going to do this and we’re going to do that, and, you know, this is going to be — I’m looking forward to that twinkle in her eye and a smile on her face. So those sorts of things, how do I motivate myself to be with somebody is part of what makes the difference between a fear bond and a joy bond.

[04:35] Stephanie: Slightly tangential, but I just thought of it as you were talking about how you’re motivated to see each other. I just remember growing up, you guys talking about making an intentional decision to greet each other with a “Happy to see you,” on the phone or whatever. You know, if one of you calls the other, you made the intentional effort to start the conversation with happiness. Can you explain a little bit?

[05:08] Marcus: Yeah. So most of us have mixed motives, and that’s okay. We all have mixed motives. We can’t help it. It’s like if my phone lights up and I’m in task mode and it’s something else and it’s Brenda, and I’m like, not now. You know, I can have that reaction. I can’t help it. That’s my reaction. But that doesn’t mean I have to answer the phone, “Yeah, what? Why are you interrupting me?” I don’t have to be that way.

I can look at that and go, this isn’t the best time. I hope this isn’t bad, but, you know, it is Brenda, and I like Brenda. I can be, “Hey, Brenda, how are you?” I can be happy to see her. I can find a joyful motivation before I answer the phone. And so that was one of the things that we tried to do. There’s other times when it’s like, oh, yeah, it’s Brenda. It can go back and forth, right? And so we all have that.

And I say, well, if you’re wondering whether or not you’re primarily fear bonded or joy bonded to somebody, just pay attention to how you react when their name shows up on your cell phone. It’s a pretty good indicator. If you’re like, oh, no or if you’re like, yay, that’s a good indication whether or not you’re coming from fear or joy.

[06:15] Stephanie: Yeah. And it’s not the only indicator because it’s not the only external factors, like you were just saying. But if you’re noticing a consistent pattern that every time.

[06:23] Marcus: Yeah, then you want to try to find a way to change that motivation and find something that is good about being with the person. For example, another way to look at this is as a parent. When your kid is upset about something, you could go, oh, I don’t really want to be around them right now because they’re not being fun and happy and cute.

Or you can go, you know, I’m exactly the person they need right now. And I would love the opportunity to help them get through this upsetness and get back to being themselves and be the person they want. So I can actually say, I am happy to be with you while you’re upset, because I know I’m exactly who you need right now. And I am confident we’re going to get through this. And, you know, it’s like I can find a joy motivation there, even if the situation itself isn’t pleasant.

[07:17] Stephanie: That’s really good. Well, I wanted to take a little bit of time in this episode to talk about — so the Life Model identified three core fear bond attachment styles. And I wanted us to just kind of address those because I think they’re helpful to understand. And lest I forget to shout it out, Maribeth Poole actually did some really nice blog posts on Deeper Walk’s website on each of these attachment styles if you’re wanting more.

[07:45] Marcus: Yeah. So the three, they start with Ds, which is probably what drew me because they all started with the same letter, but the three are, now can I remember them? Distracted is one of them.

[08:00] Stephanie: Dismissive and disorganized.

[08:03] Marcus: Yeah, thank you. Distracted, dismissive, and disorganized. So I will say that once again, people can bounce around among these in different situations. Like there are certain situations where I could be a very distracted person, and there are other situations where I can be very dismissive. I can even be somewhat disorganized. And so —

[08:24] Stephanie: That doesn’t just mean leaving things around.

[08:26] Marcus: That doesn’t just mean leaving things around, but disorganized. So the idea behind all of these is that my brain has to learn who I am and has to learn how to stay that person. And if I don’t learn who I am and how to stay that person, we call that a disorganized brain. So an organized identity is one that says I’m still the same person even when I get upset. I’m still the same person even when I’m sad. I’m still the same person. I don’t have to turn into somebody else.

Disorganized people turn into somebody else. And so an extreme case of disorganization would be like borderline personality, where I turn into a different person with every emotion I feel, or dissociative identity disorder, where I can turn into a different person. I literally have a different identity depending on what’s going on. That would be an extreme example of a disorganized attachment pattern. Because of trauma, my brain has not developed the capacity to stay itself throughout hard things. So that’s one.

The dismissive is the idea that I don’t know how to stay myself around you, so I’m just going to avoid you. So when I think dismissive I think avoidant. I think Teflon. It’s like, I can be nice to people, but they don’t really stick. And so you can think about this in terms of the light bulb. In our last podcast, we talked about the first floor of the elevator being like a light bulb that comes on when I want to attach to somebody. So dismissive you can think of as a light bulb that just stops coming on after a while because it’s like the little kid.

[10:19] Stephanie: Yeah, no, yeah, yeah. That’s where I wanted you to go, like, give it. Let’s maybe organize it like pictures of okay, you have a little kid and the attachment light comes on. What happens that would build toward dismissive?

[10:32] Marcus: Yeah. So as a kid, if I cry and I cry and nobody comes, then eventually I’m going to learn not to cry, which sometimes parents think is a good thing, but actually what’s going on is you’re forming a dismissive attachment there. Because what they’re learning is there’s no point in craving attachment because I can’t count on anybody reacting to me.

Or maybe I am trying to be happy, hoping that somebody will attach, and I still don’t get anything. Eventually that light bulb just stops coming on because I’m not getting a reaction, I’m not getting a response. I’m not getting attachment from people that’s safe and secure and joy filled. So that creates dismissive. It’s like a light bulb that just stops coming on.

Distracted is the opposite. It’s like a light bulb that just stays on all the time. So this is the child who comes across clingy because they always want to be on just in case you’re ready to attach this time. So I’m going to be on, and I’m going to be active and I’m like, do you want to attach now? Do you want to attach now? Do you want to, do you see me? It’s a very clingy kind of thing.

So you can actually flip back and forth between these, the different moods that you’re in and different things. But I find, for myself, I tend to — I always thought I was dismissive and then realized that I actually have a lot of distracted in there too.

And so what dismissives tend to do is they develop an avoidant lifestyle where I just don’t have to be around people. Distracted people are like, they’re performers. I want to be, you know, in the spotlight so everybody sees me. Hopefully, somebody will want to attach. And then disorganized is like a light bulb that doesn’t know when to come on. And it is formed because I have had to form a very intense personal bond with the scariest person in my life. And so this could be —

[12:27] Stephanie: If the person that is your safe, secure, connected person is actually your scary person, it creates intolerable conflict.

[12:37] Marcus: Yes, it does. It forms intolerable conflict on the inside because I have to be bonded to somebody who is not safe. And that creates a disorganized pattern, especially if it’s very early in life.

[12:51] Stephanie: So recognizing our bonding style helps us in what way? Why are we going there?

[12:58] Marcus: Well, you know how it’s helped me, for example, is I begin to notice when I am becoming dismissive. Because when I’m shutting down, and I’m dismissive then I just don’t care. Or I just want to get out of here and I don’t want to deal with this, and I just want to go play games on my computer or watch a hundred thousand videos on YouTube. You know, it’s like I just want to get out of here and detach right? Yeah, yeah. I don’t know.

[13:26] Stephanie: On triple speed, right?

[13:29] Marcus: I’m just saying. They’re shorts. But it’s like you’re looking at —

[13:33] Stephanie: You want to go doom scroll.

[13:34] Marcus: It’s easy. Yeah. You just find yourself, you’re just finding yourself disconnecting, but not just disconnecting because you need to recover. It’s disconnecting because you can’t function in the other place. So what we all need is we all need breaks. And so we have to learn how to give ourselves little 10-second breaks along the way and little 5-minute breaks along the way and maybe a 15-minute break here and there. And sometimes we need a little longer to recover.

But again, I was on a podcast with Jim Wilder not long ago where he said that he had a client, when he was a practicing psychologist, who spent eight hours a night watching movies. And he said, “Well, that’s just what it takes for me to recover from my day.” And he’s like, “Well, is there anything we could do that would shorten that time? He’s like, “If you watched a really good movie, could you get it down to three hours?”

And so they started there. And then eventually what they found was interesting. The thing that calmed him the fastest and took the least time for him to calm — you will like this — holding a cat. They found that if he held a cat, he was able to actually get the same kind of resolution and quiet as it was taking him eight hours of movie watching to get to in the past. And so when I talk about dismissive, that’s what we’re talking about is, I want to shorten the amount of time that it takes for me to recover and to bounce back from these things.

[15:07] Stephanie: Oh, I love it. And you touched on several things there that I want to dig into deeper, but we’re running out of time. So for one, I’ll put them together. So God designed us for rhythms, for sure. I mean, from the micro to the macro he designed us for rhythms. And talk to us briefly about the rhythm, the particular rhythm of joy and peace and what that does.

[15:38] Marcus: Yeah. So let’s start by defining them because joy and peace are basically two sides of the same coin. And joy is the high energy experience of relational happiness, and peace is the low energy cycle of relational happiness. In other words, like, you and I, we could be happy together when we’re doing something and we’re engaging, we’re up and we can also then, like, [exhales] be glad this is done.

And we could be happy to be together in a low energy state, not even talking, and that would be peace. Right? And so we need both in our lives, that high energy joy and I need that low energy rest of peace. And peace comes when I have that sense that everything’s okay, all’s right with the world. In other words, I can be at peace because we’re just happy to be together and quiet, despite the fact that, you know, there’s problems all over every place.

And one of the things we have to remember is that there is always a disaster going on somewhere in the planet at every second of the day. And because of that, it’s like I have to be careful not to just saturate myself with being preoccupied with every potential problem that exists everywhere on the planet at all times in my life. I have to be able to — I like what David said in one of the psalms, ‘I do not ponder things that are too wonderful for me.’ And sometimes you’ve got to let that stuff go and that’s part of, I’m okay.

[17:01] Stephanie: You give it to God, and you are open to him giving it back to you if that’s something he wants you to concern yourself with. Well, oof. Okay, let me move us on. In your book Breakthrough! you give us another acrostic as a way to help us change our fear bonds to joy bonds. And this is the acrostic J.O.B.S.

[17:23] Marcus: Yeah. And it’s not Steve Jobs in this case. It’s just J.O.B.S.

[17:27] Stephanie: Oh, okay. And I will just spell out J.O.B.S., and then you can talk about it. So the J is joy workouts.

[17:36] Marcus: Yes.

[17:36] Stephanie: And the O is observing fear motivators, and the B is bounce workouts. And then S is self-talk corrections.

[17:46] Marcus: So let’s define some terms, huh? Okay.

[17:49] Stephanie: Joy workouts.

[17:50] Marcus: A joy workout. You were just talking about joy and peace and the connection. So a joy workout is where I intentionally do something to try to create high energy joy that resolves itself in peace. To have a full workout, I have to have both the high energy and the low energy.

And so when we’re talking about a joy workout that might be, I’m going to practice appreciation, I’m going to get myself a piece of cake. Because sometimes I have to do something tactile or something that oh, is really fun. I really enjoy this. I want to feel that, and then I want to rest. And so a full joy experience, joy workout, is one where there’s the high energy and the low energy, and it should end with me in a place of peace. That’s a joy workout.

To distinguish from a bounce workout — I’m going to skip ahead there. A bounce workout has to do with experiencing negative emotions and recovering. And so that’s the practice of, I’m feeling a little, you know, anxious right now, but that’s okay. I can take a deep breath. I can give this over to God. I can do some different things, and I can still be myself. I can still be okay. I can recover. I can bounce back from this anxiousness that I’m feeling at the moment. And so practicing that.

So we practice bounce activities by the V.C.R. process, validating and comforting and recovering. We do joy workouts by practicing appreciation and quieting. So that’s the G.A.M.E.S. acrostic for appreciation. It’s the best acrostic for quieting. Just trying to lay this stuff out to make it really simple to do the joy workouts and the balance workouts.

[19:32] Stephanie: And if you are a new listener, you can find all of those acrostics in both our podcast episodes prior and also the book Building Bounce would have all of those. So, yeah. So observing fear motivators.

[19:44] Marcus: So observing fear motivators gets back to this idea of, I look at my phone and I’m like, oh, shoot, you know, it’s this person. And I’m like, all right, well, how do I find a joy motivator despite the fact that I initially had fear? And it’s not just with answering my phone or going to meet somebody, sometimes it can be just looking at the future. And I’m like, oh, the future looks so scary to me, but is there anything I can look forward to in the future? Is there anything I can anticipate with some joy?

So the idea is I may not be able to get rid of all of my fear, but I want to be able to find some joy. So it starts by observing the fact that, oh, my reaction to looking at this phone was actually like, yuck. Or my reaction was, ew, scary or my reaction was anger. So it’s being aware of how I am reacting to situations. So I notice, oh, I’ve gotten myself stuck in a fear motivating position here. I need to stop, I need to think about this and see if I can’t find some joy motivation. And then begin to engage.

[20:51] Stephanie: And then, similarly, self-talk corrections.

[20:53] Marcus: Self-talk correction is what I do because of the observation. So once I find that I do have a fear motivation, now I want to correct my self talk and say, well, instead of telling myself, I better get home before I get killed, you know, before my wife is really mad at me, I need to change it to I want to go home so that we can spend some time together so that we can end tonight happy to be together and look for some joy motivators along the way.

So you can kind of see from this acrostic I had to shuffle some things around to make it spell J.O.B.S., right? Normally J and B go together, the joy workout and the bounce workout, and then it’s observe the problem and replace the self talk are the things that go together here.

[21:37] Stephanie: That’s very helpful, though. I think it gives a lot of hope to be able to recognize patterns and to know, oh, I’m not alone in experiencing this. And then also to say, okay, and there are steps — I’m not stuck here — there are steps I can take to grow. So this is good.

This is all a water hose, fire hose, fire hose with lots of water. And if you’re reading along, I do encourage you to spend some time in chapter eight of Breakthrough! where you’ll get a lot more of this content. And then, yes, if you want extracurriculars, Building Bounce, The 4 Habits series. But, yeah, for now, Father, any final thoughts for this episode?

[22:23] Marcus: Yeah, I think that all of us — I think one of the most freeing things for me was realizing that my motivations are almost always mixed. It was very freeing for me to realize I don’t have to just have a joy motivator here. It’s okay that I started with some disgust or I started with some fear or I started with anger or shame or something like this.

But that doesn’t mean that just because I felt those negative emotions I can’t find something of a joy motivation to offset that and focus on that. And that was very freeing because at first I just felt shame that I even had these negative reactions to bonding or attaching to people. And so I just want to encourage people that, you know, don’t look for perfection here. Just realize you can, in fact, find joy motivators most of the time.

[23:11] Stephanie: And we are happy to be on the trail with you. Thanks for joining us on the trail today. Did you like this episode? Would you like more people to see it? This is the part where I ask you to, like, comment, subscribe, share with a friend, and do you love this channel? One of the best ways that you can support us is by becoming a deeper walk trailblazer. Thanks again. We’ll see you back on the trail next week.