19: A House Divided Cannot Stand (Ch. 2: The Flesh-Filled Home)

Stephanie (00:02):  Alright! Welcome back to Season 4, episode 19. Hello, Father.

Marcus (00:09): Hello, Daughter.

Stephanie(00:10): Good to be with you. We’re continuing our Spirit-Filled Home series. I love it. I love it. But before I get carried away with the topic of the day, I want to extend another invitation to people to join us for our Heart-Focused Discipleship, Name Your Own Price Online Conference happening the last weekend of January. That is of 2026. But if you’re listening after that, you can catch the replay. No fear.

Father, would you give us a quick little pitch for what you’re going to be talking about?.

Marcus (00:43): Yes, we’re essentially just walking through the FISH model of heart-focused discipleship, but with a little bit different spin, because you get to hear from people from other organizations and how they’ve approached freedom, how they’ve approached identity, how they’ve approached walking in the Spirit and heart-focused community, and how this all gets applied in the local church. So it’s going to be familiar themes, but with a new take and a new spin from new voices.

Stephanie (01:10): Super exciting. You can learn more about that through the link in the description, or if you ever visit deeperwalk.com/events you can see our lineup of what’s coming up next.

All right, Father, we are continuing our study of The Spirit-Filled Home and I also want to invite people, you can find your free DIY book club guide kit in the description where we have some PDFs and such that you can download if you want to do a book buddy study or a group study through this book. This series is intended to be a resource for you to come back to when you’re ready to do that.

So, Father, last week we set up Flesh versus Spirit. This week, if people are following along in their books, we are in chapter two, The Flesh-Filled Home. So tell us about flesh-filled homes.

Marcus (02:11): Yeah. Well, you know, it is something about a non-Christian home, by definition, is a flesh-filled home, but some of them are really good in the sense that  there’s a lot of good things going on there and because of maturity can lead to some of these relational skills being higher than an immature home.

What I try to distinguish here is that if you have a flesh-filled home, you are going to, at some level, have conflict, and you’re going to have conflict that you don’t quite know what to do with and how to resolve. Now, mature people generally handle conflict a little bit better, but if you get below the surface, a flesh-filled home is going to be one that is always characterized by conflict.

And what I find is that, I’ve been around a lot of folks who had their kids in Christian schools or they were church-going people and what the kids would report is that my parents were one way at church, but they were another way behind closed doors. Or they were one way when they were in front of people, they were another way when it was just us.

What I find is that this is pretty typical of flesh-filled homes, is that you get a kind of duality of, make sure that you look good on the outside, but we aren’t quite as careful about what we look like behind closed doors because it’s a bit of a performance and because the flesh, what it wants is to make sure that people think well of them. And it’s a challenge.

When we look at the scriptures and you look at flesh and the consequences of the flesh, one of the consistent themes that is pointed out  when the flesh is at work is that there is relational conflict.

Stephanie (04:10): You lay it out nicely on page one of this chapter here in Galatians 5. Over half the list relates to conflict of some kind. And you’ve got conflict, or you’ve got indulgence in power and such. Can you speak a little bit more of Galatians 5 or that concept?

Marcus (04:25): Sure. Galatians 5 is where we learn about the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit. And he’s got a long list of the works of the flesh. I think once upon a time I had it memorized, but not anymore. But this list, what I realized is I would often put up all of the words from the works of the flesh list for people up on a screen, and I’d ask them a simple question: How many of these are related to relational conflict? I got almost universal agreement that about half of the list was on relational conflicts.

You’ve also got things about indulgence and you’ve got things related to the occult. But if you take those two things out, if it’s not self-indulgence and the occult, then the flesh, what it drives us to is conflict. So you get factions and dissensions and jealousy and envy and hatred and all these other things because that’s what the flesh does. It’s a very conflict oriented thing. It tells us that if you get a group of people, and flesh is what is in control, it is going to end in conflict.

Stephanie (05:37): As I look at this list, some of the ones that are in the indulgence / power could also be relational conflict because it takes two to tango, right? And then that throws me into thinking about fiction and watching shows and reading books and the amount of time that I’m just like, “If they just had Jesus, the things that are causing them problems wouldn’t be there.” My heart is like, “You guys, you guys, Jesus can help this. He’s got answers.”

But anyway, I digress. Is there any more you want to say about conflict in general?

Marcus (06:07): Yeah. We not only help real people with marriage issues, we help fictional marriages. I’m just saying it’s a…

Stephanie (06:24): Hey, I have literally given your books to two fellow authors as a “Hey, read this. It’ll help you as you’re developing your characters or whatever.” We’re trying to speak truth in our fiction.

Marcus (06:33): Yeah. Trying to help authors everywhere. Yeah. Okay.

Well, as we were talking about the works of the flesh in Galatians, the other passage on this about conflict is James 4:1 & 2. I remember going through here and it just jumped out, especially when you go through it in Greek, it just jumps out that Paul uses some military terminology. Like what causes polemic in polemics or quarrels, anger, but it’s also a military term for warfare or battle.

And what is it that causes wars and battles? He’s talking about it in a relational setting and he basically says it comes down to the fact that you’re not getting what you want. He uses three different descriptions for the desires of the flesh. He uses hedonai, from which we get hedonism. He uses epithymia, which is the word for covet from the Ten Commandments and the Greek version of those.

Then he uses the word zeal or jealous. The idea of jealousy is, “I really want this thing and I don’t want to have to share it with somebody else.” And so they all have to do with this idea of, “I’ve got these deep seated desires for my pleasure or for my provision, my protection, something that I have to have.” And he said, “What’s causing the conflict among you is that you’re not getting what you want.”

And that led to the observation of, you can really measure your maturity as a Christian by how you act when you don’t get what you want. Because if you don’t get your way and you turn into somebody else, that’s a sign of immaturity. And I’ve known a lot of pastors who turn into a totally different person when they don’t get what they want.

I’ve known a lot of parents this way. They behave one way toward their kids when they’re getting what they want and they turn into a totally different person when they’re not. And we see it in husbands and wives as well.  Do you become a different person when you don’t get what you want? That’s a sign of immaturity.

It’s a sign that there are holes in your maturity development. And I find that wherever I find holes in my maturity development, I will always find the flesh.  My flesh is very much in control in those areas. And so learning the habits of walking in the Spirit are also how we grow our maturity. It does take time, it does take focus, and it does take habits.

So that was a long, big overview but the core thing here is that flesh manifests itself through relational conflict. We see this in Galatians, in the works of the flesh, and we see it in James 4:1 & 2, when he describes what it is that causes conflicts among you.

Stephanie (09:21): Let’s press deeper into the idea of immaturity. Like we said last episode, a lot of times before you get to what you should do or what the habits are you should cultivate, it’s helpful to have clear recognition for things that are signs of the deficiency or the error. So in this chapter you talk about immaturity and the three A’s. Avoidance, Anger, and Addiction. Let’s talk more about that.

Marcus (09:51): Yeah, Triple A, the three ways of immaturity. Our avoidance is number one. And the idea of avoidance is that when I know I can’t handle certain things, I instinctively avoid them. And so there are conversations with my wife I avoid because I don’t want to have to deal with the emotion that I’m pretty sure that that conversation is going to generate. So I avoid it.

What can happen over time is that the greater my immaturity, the more avoidance there will be in my lifestyle and when I am avoiding specifically other people and situations that will generate emotions that I don’t think I can handle.

And so I avoid this person because I’m afraid of the emotions that will be generated by interacting with that person. I avoid these situations. because I am afraid of the emotions that I will have to deal with if I interact with that situation. And so I become avoidant.

Now, once you get into avoidance, it leads automatically to the next “A”, which is Addiction. Because one of the easiest ways to avoid things is to turn to an addiction instead. Some common addictions are, I just always scroll through the internet every chance I get because that helps me to avoid all the emotions I don’t want to feel, helps me avoid the people. Or I watch TV relentlessly and constantly. I have music on all of the time. I use media as a substitute.

What I’ll find is that addictions will always be non-relational substitutes for healthy relational interaction. And it’s not that there’s never a time for those kinds of distractions or that there’s never a time to do that, but when my lifestyle begins to revolve around that, that’s a sign that I am using an addiction in order to avoid things. So those are the first two.

Stephanie (11:58): Well, and it’s not even that addictions never like, “Well, I’m doing this thing with a person, so it must not be an addiction.” It’s not the relationalness, it’s that you’re doing it in isolation.

Marcus (12:11): Somebody said we can summarize our addictions with ESP. And it wasn’t my acrostic, so I liked it. It was Experiences, and experiences would be like adrenaline rush, our sexual experiences. I get addicted to the experience that comes from sexual fantasy or pornography, things like that. So there’s that experience addiction.

S is Substance addictions, which we’re all very familiar with, with drugs, alcohol, et cetera. And then there’s actually People addictions. And what we mean by people addictions is where I use people to help me feel better. I’m not actually bonding to them.

And so you get some people who are addicted to being on the phone and they have to be on the phone with somebody all day long. They’ve got to be on social media all day long with somebody they rely on. They’re not actually forming healthy attachments with people. They’re just using them to feel better. They’re addicted to parties and things like that.

So those are the three main categories of addictions. The people one can have the appearance of being relational, but it’s actually not because I’m actually using people, not connecting with them.

Stephanie(13:27): Good clarity.

Marcus (13:27): So yeah, then we’ve got a third A (in the triple A acrostic) We’ve got Avoidance and it leads to Addiction. And the third one is Anger, and that is the idea that I’m gonna have a short fuse because I am constantly on the edge of my emotional capacity.

So I could tell that I’m struggling with immaturity because immaturity is directly related to emotional capacity. And that is, how much of an emotion can I handle before I blow up? Before I melt down, before I turn into a different person, before I stop acting like myself and become somebody else?

That manifests itself normally with the idea of, I’ve got a pretty short fuse. Because of that, people walk on eggshells around me. And they walk on eggshells around me because they’re never quite sure whether this next step is going to be the one that is a step too far that causes the thing to blow.

And so that’s kind of three simple ways to measure it. There’s more than that, obviously, but those are three simple ones that we can take a look at and just evaluate. Do I have an avoidant lifestyle? Do I have an addictive lifestyle? Do people walk on eggshells around me because they’re never quite sure when my anger’s gonna flare? Those three things are just simple tests to see what we’re doing with our maturity development.

Stephanie (14:43): So you were talking about spiritual maturity and capacity. Is there a choice? Like, “I’m being immature. I need to stop it.” How does that work?

Marcus (15:00): The answer to that is yes and no. You cannot simply choose to have capacity, but you can choose to do something about your capacity. Just like an infant can’t choose to become a toddler, and a toddler can’t just choose to be a teenager, right?

But there are choices that you can make all along the way that are going to help you develop those capacities. I can’t just choose to be in shape, right? But there are choices.

Stephanie (15:35): I can’t just go to the gym and say I’m going to now lift 300 pounds. I could make that choice, but I would fail at it, right?

Marcus (15:41): Right. Capacity has to do with, have I built capacity because I have developed the habits and I’ve put in the work in a sense that it takes for these things to now be habits that have given me the capacity to do these things. What I can do is I can make the choice to begin doing the things that help me grow capacity.

So whether it’s taking more walks and drinking more water and doing all of those other things related to our health, but I’m also practicing walking in the Spirit, practicing crucifying the flesh and practicing these things until they become habits that end up then growing my capacity.

And then I will begin noticing that I am less avoidant than I used to be, and I am less addicted than I used to be, and I am less angry than I used to be, right? And so you begin noticing these things as byproducts. of the habits that are being built as I am growing that capacity.

Stephanie (16:41): My brain went three similar directions. One, What About Bob, baby steps to the elevator. Two, Juni Felix, my dear friend and her tiny habits. Just the importance of many times we’re like, “Well, I need to make this big, huge change,” but actually make the small change and celebrate and then keep moving forward taking the small things.

And then I guess the third one being this is one of the reasons why habit building is so important when you’re not in crisis. Because what we do when we’re not in crisis will then inform how we act once that crisis hits, once that trigger hits. The work we’re doing when we’re not triggered is going to help with that. Three thoughts.

Marcus (17:42): Yeah, what they have in common is this idea of, you can’t make a choice to suddenly be completely different. What you can do is start making small choices. So that’s baby steps, tiny habits, little things.

I’ve heard Juni explain it, like if I want to lose weight. Okay, I’m gonna eat less. Well, that’s still kind of a pretty big thing. And then it’s like, well, I’ll drink more water, and that’s still kind of a big thing. So she’s like, “I will always have a glass of water with me whenever I sit down.” Now that’s something.

And then the idea is to celebrate every time that you succeed at whatever this little change you’re trying to make, so that you celebrate those successes and you begin. compiling those successes. So this is behavior modification, right?

Stephanie(18:36): And yeah, it wires your brain to associate doing that thing with happiness, with the joy. Yeah.

Marcus (18:43): Exactly, an association with happiness, so these are like behavior modification steps. But that’s kind of what habit building is. There’s a behavior modification element to building these new habits. And part of what we’re trying to do is bring the Holy Spirit in to make it more of a habit to turn to the Spirit in the things that we’re doing and not always rely on ourselves.

Stephanie (19:08): Yes. Which reminds me, the third one. There was a third one that was actually more similar to the baby steps and it was the 28 Days to Joy Challenge that we have as a free challenge that you can go to at the 4 Habits website, which I’ll link down in the description.

Chris Coursey and others in our network will often talk about five minutes a day. But even if you can’t do five minutes a day of appreciation,start with, “Can I do this for five seconds? Can I do this for 10 seconds?” Right? Then you’re increasing your capacity for it. You’re building it up.

Marcus (19:47): Yes, speaking of Chris and Jen Coursey and Thrive Today, one of the stories I remember Chris telling was he was working with Jim Wilder to try to help people develop the ability to quiet.He was in a setting where they were running groups and he found that a lot of times the people in the groups could not quiet their mind for more than a couple of seconds.

And so this is exactly what they did. “Let’s set a timer for five seconds and then let’s celebrate if you’re able to do it.” And then later you grow it to 15 seconds. It’s like, “I was able to quiet and I can feel what that feels like!”  And it took weeks, but they got it up to a whole minute, and then gradually it got to be some of the favorite things that people did was, “I really look forward to that time when I can just be quiet, take a deep breath and let my mind rest.”

And so it is a skill that has to be learned. It’s something that has to be developed. Your brain has to get rewired around some of these things. And so walking in the Spirit, God doesn’t bypass our normal brain functions and our normal bodily functions and things like this. He works with what he has created to help. And so we take these things into account and that’s part of. the whole process.

This chapter was starting off with the idea of conflict, but the idea, if I’m going to turn this around, I’ve got to realize that it’s not going to turn around in an instant. It’s going to begin turning around as I build new habits. And these new habits are what grow our capacity. And so I’ve got to make tiny changes over time to form new habits. And that’s going to grow my capacity so that I can handle conflict better, even if I can’t stop all of the conflict.

Stephanie (21:40): So linking back to the idea of, I’m recognizing that I’m avoidant or angry or addicted, whether the tool is tiny habits or another tool that comes to mind, what would be something if you’re doing an inventory of yourself and you’re saying, “Yeah, OK, I’ve got an issue here.” What are some next steps that somebody should take if they’re doing some self-reflection?

Marcus (22:09): There’s an excellent question. My mind immediately comes up with about 15 things. There are things that you can do individually, there are things you can do with one other person, and there’s things you can do as a group. So let’s just put it into those three categories.

What can I do myself? And that is, I can begin to say, “I need to take a deep breath. I need to quiet myself a little bit and then I need to ask God. Go through SLOW.  I’m like, “I’m Seeking you God. What do you want me to know about how to handle this?” Deep breath. Then you Listen.

What are the thoughts going through your mind right now? Are there any that are a little surprising? Are there any that you think would lead to the fruit of the Spirit if you follow them? Obey those. And then you Watch what happens and you go through it. So that in of itself is a tiny little habit that you want to try to change.

And then you go beyond that to, “Well, maybe there’s somebody I need to talk to who can help me because I need somebody outside of myself to take a look at what’s going on here and help me get outside of just dealing with being all alone and dealing with this.”

And then there are some things that it takes a group, being with a group of people who are all working on doing a better job of walking in the Spirit. It creates that soil that helps transformation become more rooted, more possible.

I think that sometimes we only think in terms of what can I do by myself, or some people immediately jump to, need to go to counseling. But there is a place for meeting with a people helper, a counselor, a prayer minister. There’s a place for being in a group that is all on this same journey. And then there are things that you can do just individually yourself.

Stephanie (24:15): I’m also reminded as kind of a segue into our final thoughts here. just got a text from somebody this morning who just started the Spirit and Scripture course. She started with a group and she was like, “Whoa, this is awesome!”

So much of what we’re covering in this series, you can also dig deeper in the Spirit and Scripture course, so I’ll link that down there too in the description and I encourage you to check that out. And just a reminder to join us for the Heart-Focused Discipleship Conference online. Name Your Own Price at the end of January.

And thank you for being on the trail with us. All right, Father, final thoughts for this episode.

Marcus (25:03): Yeah, you know, I’ve been at this a long time and I still have holes. I still look at this and when I find that I have a hole where I’m struggling again and again, that’s usually the cue to me that I need to go get help and not try to just do this myself. And so I would just encourage you, look to other people for help on this thing.

If you find yourself going, “I have a hole that I just can’t seem to get on the other side of no matter how much I try to discipline myself, no matter how much I try to do this a different way,” that might be the sign that you need to get a little outside help. And I do highly encourage people to be in a group of people who are all working on walking in the Spirit together. That is clearly what we’re after here.

And so if you can, I just close that way. Don’t try to do it all yourself. There is a time for asking for help and there is a time for being part of a community that is moving in a common direction.

Stephanie (26:05): See you back next week.