73: Viewpoints on Authority

[00:07] Stephanie: Welcome to Deeper Walk’s On the Trail podcast. You are on the trail with father-daughter duo, Marcus and Stephanie Warner. I’m Stephanie, and I’ll be talking with my father, Dr. Marcus Warner, as we discuss topics that help you stay on the trail to a deeper walk with God. Season 1, episode 73. Today we are talking about different viewpoints regarding the authority of the believer.

Hello, Father.

[00:30] Marcus: Hello, Daughter. It feels like it’s been a while since we’ve done this.

[00:33] Stephanie: It literally has. I am officially, truly back from Scotland. As we are recording this in the throes of NaNoWrimo and all the things I talked about last episode. In the last episode, I don’t know, did we record that a month ago? It was a long time.

[00:48] Marcus: It was like a month ago. But I was curious to see if you were gonna start saying “grace” now that you’re back from Scotland.

[00:53] Stephanie: That’s a very John lynch thing to say, I love John lynch. Oh, man. I want to start us off with an icebreaker, this listener wants to know, what is your favorite board or card game?

[01:08] Marcus: My favorite board or card game. That’s an excellent question. I’m not super into them, but I would say, the card game I play the most hands down is Canasta. But it’s sort of our own family adaptation of the game. I liked Risk for a while, but it’s just way too long. And we have also had a family history of enjoying Dutch Blitz or Nerts or something like that.

[01:42] Stephanie: And mom loves Ticket to Ride.

[01:43] Marcus: Yeah, yeah, that’s true.

[01:44] Stephanie: I would definitely say the first thing that comes to mind for me is Dutch Blitz. I grew up playing Dutch Blitz with you guys and then we learned Nerds, which is the normal card version of Dutch Blitz. Yeah, I love those. I remember playing dominoes when I was little and liking that, but we haven’t done them as much. I love the idea of playing games, but I don’t get to actually play games as often as I would love. But I love playing Settlers of Catan, and I like Risk.

[02:12] Marcus: And then when you mentioned dominoes, I remember that I liked Mexican Train Dominoes. That was always fun.

[02:18] Stephanie: Yeah, we like games. That’s fun. All right, well, hey, before we get into the body of the episode, this is your final call for School of Ministry sign ups. If you want to join Deeper Walk’s Prayer Ministry certification cohort that is starting up in January. Technically, the applications close in December, but last time I checked I think there might have been four places left or something.

[02:49] Marcus: It is close to full. So if you want to join, now’s the time to sign up.

[02:53] Stephanie: Yes. And you can get more information about that on our website, and you can go straight to it with this URL, https://deeperwalk.com/school-of-ministry/.

All right, so last episode we started talking about the authority of the believer, in contrast to an occult worldview. We covered lots of ground. We set the definition of terms for power and authority. We talked about the role of spirits and how different cultures and different belief systems interact with those. We talked about Shoefoot’s testimony and different things like that. And we talked about those two pamphlets you got in the same week that were just diametrically opposite viewpoints on authority of a believer. So we’re going to head into that. You also gave kind of your elevator pitch for what your viewpoint is. And so we’re not going to spend a lot of time on your viewpoint in this episode. We’re going to save that for next episode. Before we get into the other viewpoints, will you give us that elevator pitch again so it’s fresh in our minds, that would be great.

[04:04] Marcus: Well, let me start here. There’s this broad spectrum between reformed theology and charismatic theology. And every now and then you find this unique person who is a reformed charismatic. When I talked about those two pamphlets, one was from a reformed person saying, we don’t have any authority. Another one was from a charismatic who is like, we have all authority and when I speak, Jesus is speaking. And there’s this spectrum. And we have people like that on both sides in our audience and in fact, probably on our staff and on our board. We have people who would fall into categories like that. My take on this is, we try to meet people where they’re at theologically and to help give them tools and perspectives to just test things.

So we’re really big on testing. Like, how do we test to make sure that I haven’t just made assumptions about what is true? For example, on the charismatic extreme end can be the assumption that if it’s supernatural and it happened in church or it happened from somebody calling themselves a Christian, that it must be from God. They don’t test it. On the other hand, there can be the other extreme. Oh, that supernatural stuff stopped in 380A.D, it hasn’t happened since. There’s no more supernatural things going on in the world. And they can just dismiss everything and they don’t test it either. There’s no testing going on on either side.

So a big part of what we’re trying to, is encourage people to take a deeper walk. Wherever you find yourself starting on this spectrum or on this scale, that’s fine, that’s where you’re starting. What we want to do now is get more informed, learn about this, and begin to learn the tools and the strategies that are at the heart of it, that are essential to it. And so that’s kind of what we’re after here. So when we talk about authority, one of the things that makes authority difficult is the questions I get asked about authority. Do I have the authority to do “X”, do I have the authority to do “Y”?

And the Bible doesn’t say. Most of that comes down to sort of a philosophy of authority and your experience with authority and things like that. And so you find yourself going, well, here’s how I understand it. But it is difficult to be dogmatic sometimes. Like, well, yeah, you absolutely have the authority to do that, when the Bible doesn’t say so. And so that’s part of what creates the tension, too.

And a lot of the times when we’re talking about authority and the use of authority, the Bible’s good at giving broad strokes on some of these things, but does not have a lot of detail. For example, “Yes, you as a Grandmother can cast a demon out of your grandchild. You have the authority.” The Bible doesn’t talk about it. So all that comes down to, well, what has your experience been? And once you get into experience, you can get people all over the board. And that’s why you have to allow experience to inform your theology, because it is, whether you believe it is or not.

[07:20] Stephanie: But you also can’t let the tail wag the dog.

[07:21] Marcus: Yes, exactly. You can’t let the tail wag the dog. You have to make sure the Bible is actually the driving factor in what’s going on.

[07:31] Stephanie: I really appreciate that you brought all of that up. I know we’ve talked about it before that just because you say something, it doesn’t mean that it’s Deeper Walk’s official position.

[07:41] Marcus: Well, yeah, it’s true. I’ll give you examples, Fred Dickason and my dad, Tim Warner were about as different as you could get theologically. One was very Reformed, one was very Armenian. One was from a Mennonite kind of background and one was from a very Reformed background. And so if you talk to them about their theology of different things, it would have been very, very different.

But once you got them on spiritual warfare and you got them on identity in Christ, and you got them on these core things that we’re talking about, it all came out almost identically. And that’s sort of been the heart of our ministry. We’ve tried to meet people where they are theologically and bring to bear the best that we can, on things that help people move forward. And trust the Holy Spirit to use that process to guide people into a more biblically balanced place.

[08:37] Stephanie: And so before we dig into the other viewpoints, I just want your elevator pitch for you personally. When you think about the authority of the believer, what is it? Because I think you will probably draw from that, whether you mean to or not, when you’re talking about the other viewpoints. So it would just be helpful to know.

[08:53] Marcus: The core thing that comes to my mind when I think of authority is like a police officer. An officer has derived authority, real authority, limited authority. So it is derived in the sense that it’s not because Tom the police officer has something innate about him, that gives him authority. In the same way I, Marcus, there’s nothing innate in me that just because I showed demons go, ooh, it’s Marcus, and they should be scared.

I have an authority granted to me. It’s derived from the fact that all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Christ, then my authority is derived from that. It is real. A police officer can actually give you a ticket. They can actually do things that have consequences. It’s a very real authority. I, as a Christian, have a very real authority that makes things happen when I represent that properly. But that authority is limited.

So with the police officer, just because he’s got authority doesn’t mean he can come in here and tell me how to live my life, and what I can and can’t do. You know, you can drink that, can’t drink that. He can’t do that. His authority is limited to the law in the same way I have limited authority. That’s why I was opposed to the position that says I have unlimited authority. Whatever I say, Christ is saying, that’s not true.

So it is limited to the scope of jurisdiction. Like, do I have jurisdiction in this area? For example, can I speak for African Americans? No, I’m not African American. Can I speak for the people of India about something? No, I can’t. I don’t have jurisdiction. But I can represent pastors to some extent. Having been a pastor I can speak as a pastor. I can speak within my family. I have a jurisdiction that I don’t have outside my family. I have a jurisdiction in Deeper Walk that I don’t have outside of Deeper Walk. There’s limitations by jurisdiction.

There’s also limitations by law. This sounds weird, but demons have rights. And you go, well, how can that be? It’s because we live in a present evil age. In the age between the fall of man and the return of Christ, this is where the world is a world of warfare. We are looking forward to the end of this warfare and the return of Christ so that this will come to an end. But in the meantime, this is why we say there is a legal foundation to all of this.

And that legal foundation means that they have the right to do some things, and I have the right to do some things. I need to understand what my rights are and what the limitations are on what they can do, and the limitations on what I can do. And so when I think of authority, that was a very long answer. It is a derived authority from Christ to whom all authority is given. It is a real authority that has consequences that makes things happen. It is a limited authority. It doesn’t mean I can just say I cast all the demons out of the world, because I have limited authority, it is limited by law and by jurisdiction.

[12:16] Stephanie: Yeah, that’s a very good, good chunk. We will continue unpacking that in the next episode, but thank you for laying that out.

[12:26] Marcus: The simple one is, authority is the right to represent power. Okay.

[12:32] Stephanie: All right, so let’s dig into the spectrum of viewpoints. I see this as giving exposure. There are many people who maybe are new believers or who have been very entrenched in a single denomination, and maybe don’t even realize that there’s another way to think about it, other than what they have grown up in. Maybe they have skewed perceptions of other people’s beliefs because of whatever. I just want to give some exposure to what even can be on the spectrum.

[13:08] Marcus: Well, yeah. So where do we start? Should we start on the authority spectrum? Going back to that time when I literally was given a book and a pamphlet the same week by two different ladies. And one of them was from a reformed guy who was saying, Christians don’t have authority, in his core text. And when I read it his only text was Jude where it says, even Michael did not say to Lucifer, I rebuke you. But it said, the Lord rebuke you.

So most places where I teach on authority I get out the slide and I show the three tiers. I say, here’s the realm of God where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Here’s the realm of angels, and here’s the realm of humans. Christ came down, became a human, became one of us. So that when I am united with Christ I now am seated with him in the heavenly realms. And it specifically says that, that I am seated far above what the whole angelic realm.

So if I am seated with Christ above the angelic realm, it means that as a believer I actually have more authority than Michael, which sounds crazy. But you have to separate power from authority. Michael has more power than I do. He’s got authority and jurisdiction in areas I don’t have authority and jurisdiction, because it’s limited. So Michael can order around demons in different ways. He can order around angels in different ways if they’re subject to him. But he and Lucifer, in a sense, are parallel to each other. They’re sort of like equals. And he’s not a Christian who is in Christ united with him speaking in the name of Jesus, the same way that I, as a Christian have a right to. So I can say things like, in the name of Jesus, you have to do this. I have an authority that even Michael doesn’t have because it’s in the area of the jurisdiction I’ve been given.

There’s areas of jurisdiction I think Michael has that I don’t have. So I don’t go ordering around angels like, I command the third regiment of left hemisphere angels. I think that gets a little out there. Understanding that Jude text is helpful to people. Because it’s confusing they’re thinking, well, okay, that means therefore I shouldn’t be trying to give commands to satan or to any demons.

The other part about the Jude text is that it is specifically refuting false brothers, false apostles, false teachers, and false prophets. In other words, these are not Christians. And so what they’re trying to fix is these non Christians claiming to have authority over all of this stuff. It’s not actually directly addressing the authority of Christians. It is correcting these false Christian brothers. And so I think that’s important to recognize, too. So I just think he’s misinterpreted Jude and misunderstood Jude, because his worldview did not correctly give the right paradigm for how to interpret that text.

On the other side, all authority is mine when I speak in the name of Jesus. And when I looked at his, it was the classic thing with here’s some references about authority. He doesn’t unpack any of the passages, doesn’t give you any of the exegesis, and doesn’t explain anything about how I got this from this passage. Basically what he had is, I’ve had these experiences and I use authority in these experiences. And here’s a verse that talks about authority therefore I’m right.

And that happens way too often. Just because you can say, oh, the word authority is used in the Bible, and I used authority to do something, therefore my interpretation of authority is correct. I think that happens way too often where people have a supernatural experience. And because they had that supernatural experience, they assumed that the theology of whoever did the supernatural thing is correct. I have found it to be rarely true.

[17:25] Stephanie: All right, so those are the broad, two opposite ends of the spectrum. And then can you bring it more into maybe things that you don’t wholly disagree with, but are different.

[17:41] Marcus: So again, I like Neil T. Anderson’s book, The Core of Christianity. But no matter what kind of background you’re from as a Christian, whether you’re coming from charismatic or reformed or high church, or some other branch of Christianity. You may have very little in common with the style of your worship and that sort of thing. But the closer you get into intimacy with Christ the more you will have in common, because your daily walk with God is about holiness.

Your daily walk with God is about listening to the spirit, your daily walk with God is about a crucified life. And so what I find is regardless of which tradition you’re coming from or regardless of even which theological family you’re  coming from, the closer you get in intimacy to Christ, the more in common that you’re going to have. Which is why I have great friends in all of these traditions who are all wonderful Christian people. And functionally, on a day to day basis, their lifestyle isn’t that much different. They are reading their Bible, praying, seeking God, and trying to be obedient listening to the spirit. And I also think that God has his people in all these different branches. He’s got his representatives. He has his remnant and all these different branches and I think he does it on purpose.

[19:04] Stephanie:  Yeah. We are trying to make a concerted effort to come back.

[19:12] Marcus: And shorten things up a little bit.

[19:13] Stephanie: We were originally going to have shorter episodes and I have let them get longer. So we’re coming up toward the end of the episode. I’m trying to think, do you want me to throw the propitiation question at you now?

[19:28] Marcus: Well, propitiation is such an easy question.

[19:30] Stephanie: Let’s do it since I mentioned it. All right, so this was a question from a listener following up from our episode on pardon. Randy says, “I’ve been enjoying the thoughts on pardon and the related words benefits, unless I missed it, could you comment on propitiation also?”

[19:45] Marcus: All right, so the word is interesting. When I was in systematic theology and they started talking about, what’s the difference between expiation and propitiation? To this day I have to stop and think about it. So in simple terms, expiation is the removal of sin. And propitiation is the payment of the penalty of sin. And so what happens here is there are verses that say God has taken away our sin and has purified us from the sin. And so the idea is that atonement is about the removal of sin.

When we use the word propitiation, we’re specifically talking about the penalty for sin has been paid. So here’s the thing, yes, both are true. Our sin has been taken away and the penalty has been paid. The challenge I have is sometimes people reduce atonement to simply the payment of the penalty. And I’m like, I just don’t want to see us reduce it to just that, because there’s more going on to atonement.

And so there are times where the word atonement can be translated to propitiation. You’ll find it particularly in the New King James version or the King James version will use that word a lot. The word actually goes back to the Hebrew word khaphara for atonement. And the Greek word hilastērion, specifically, which is the Greek word for the cover of the Ark of the Covenant. Which is very specific.

In other words, here’s the Ark and here’s the cover that you can open and look inside and see the tablet and the other stuff. The tablets of stone and the other things that are in there. And so this cover is where blood would be poured and the high priest could connect with God.

And so the question is, what is the significance of this cover, this hilastērion?  Because it’s the exact same Greek word that is translated, propitiation in several of these texts. So I think this is what all of these words have in common, reconciliation. I was separated from God and whatever atonement did, it fixed what was keeping me from God. And one of the things that got fixed was the penalty for my sin got paid.

Another thing that got fixed was my sin was removed. It’s lifted up from and off of me. It was put on Christ. It was taken away as far as the east is from the west. So you’ve got all these things, and that’s why we had that acrostic on cross just to talk about all the various things that happened. And usually I would put the payment of the penalty under substitution, as one of the things that substitution accomplished on the cross. So there it is. There’s your two minutes on propitiation.

[22:37] Stephanie: Huzzah! Good job. All right, so we’re now coming to the end of the episode. Any closing thoughts on the various viewpoints on authority which, you know, we rushed?

[22:51] Marcus: Let me just put it this way. I first learned about authority because I had to. When there’s someone sitting across from you who’s manifesting a demon, your theology gets pretty clear pretty fast. It’s like, either I can or I can’t tell this demon what to do. And once you do, you begin to realize there are limits. Like, I can’t just tell this demon anything I want to. There are some limits placed on here by the amount of permissions that have been given.

And so now you go, well, what can I do? And that’s where this all started. So my search into authority started in a very practical way. It’s like you’ve got somebody who’s manifesting demonically sitting in front of you, what can you do? And what I found is I can bind that demon and tell them to stop interfering with my right to speak to them. I can get that person to resolve their permissions and then we can go back and get rid of the demon.

It became a sort of standardized practice because that was the context in which we were dealing with authority. If you’re in a different context, your understanding of authority might look different. But just to help people kind of understand where I’m coming from, that was the context in which I had to develop my understanding of authority.

[24:10] Stephanie: And we’re going to talk a lot more about that in the next episode, so very good. Awesome. Thank you, everyone, for joining us on the trail today. Deeper Walk exists to make heart focused discipleship the norm for Christians everywhere. If you’d like to support this cause, you can become a Deeper Walk Trailblazer with your monthly donation of $25 or more. And if you want to keep going deeper with us on your walk with God, please subscribe to the On the Trail podcast, leave a review, and share with your friends.

Thanks again. We’ll see you back next week.