23: Who Is That in the Mirror? – Understanding Mirror Neurons

[00:00] Stephanie: Season 3, episode 23.

Doing all I can not to just burst into singing some Mulan lyrics here, but today is all about mirror neurons.

Hello, Father.

[00:12] Marcus: Hello, Daughter.

[00:15] Stephanie: Happy Easter week.

[00:16] Marcus: It’s happy Easter week. I do know it’s hard for you to talk about identity and not sing Mulan.

[00:22] Stephanie: Yeah, we’re talking about reflection in our identity and, you know, so I’ll let the Disney nerds just fill in the blanks there.

So, yes, last week we started talking some neurotheology, some neuroscience. I really appreciated how you brought creation and covenant together. Which, I need to do a shout out here for our Identity Course.

If you want to go deeper on your own personal journey for understanding your identity from both that creation and covenant perspective, we have a 10-week, self-paced course called the Identity Course.

I’ll put a link in the description for you that will help you walk through. Father here will do like three hours of video training over the course of 10 lessons. And there are lots of interaction things for you to do over the material.

[01:20] Marcus: Yep. We call it a 10-week course, but there are 10 lessons, since it’s self-paced.

[01:25] Stephanie: Yes, you can do it at your own pace. So if that’s a really fast pace, you could do it a little slower, that’s fine. Anyway, I needed to shout that out because it was relevant and really good.

Oh, and I also wanted to encourage you, if you missed our last episode, I encourage you to just pause this episode and go back and catch that other one because we were talking brain science, we were talking fast track and slow track and all of that.

If you are not fully immersed in knowing fast track, slow track, we might throw some terms out here and not pause and describe them. So go back and catch that one. Come back to this one when you’re done.

And hello, Father.

[02:06] Marcus: Hello again, Daughter.

[02:09] Stephanie: Today I want to talk about mirror neurons. So firstly, what are they?

[02:15] Marcus: What is a mirror neuron? First of all, a mirror neuron, one of the reasons it’s called that is that it is not self aware and does not look at itself. It is outward facing.

What a mirror neuron’s doing is it’s looking at you and it’s learning about me by looking at you. Mirror neurons tell me if you’re happy to see me or not, or if you’re disgusted with me.

Something like that. So it’s the mirror Neurons that start that process by recognizing what it’s seeing out there and how out there is looking at me.

[02:51] Stephanie: Okay. I did pull an excerpt out of Rare Leadership that I was thinking about reading. Do you want me to read it and you can interrupt me?

[02:58] Marcus: Yeah. This is a Jim story. So he wrote this and he was explaining it, and I’m happy to comment on it. This will take a couple minutes, but I think it’s worth it.

[03:08] Stephanie: Yeah, I think it’s well packaged right here. This is from chapter eight, “Act Like Yourself: The Heart of Christ Within Us.” Jim is talking about a conversation he had with a client. And I’m going to pop right into the middle here:

So the client smiled, “Jesus wants you to know, that there is lots of stuff inside of people that’s ready to be like someone else.” Scriptures came to mind.

Paul wrote that we are complete in Christ. We have the mind of Christ. We have become the righteousness of God. Christ lives in us who have been united with him in his death and resurrection.

It made sense that the qualities of Christ have been born in us through the Holy Spirit. They are present, but dormant, and ready to be seen and called out in time.

It occurred to me that “be like” is a great way to describe the mirror neurons in the brain’s identity center. Mirror neurons can’t look at themselves. Our identity center can only look at others and activate the neurons that reflect what they see.

If I live with people who regularly demonstrate disgust around me, my mirror neurons will reflect that, and I will learn to think of myself as someone who generates disgust. If I live with parents who take delight in who I am and demonstrate that delight regularly, I learn to see myself as someone who brings joy to others.

Suppose the image of Christ within us is found in the “be like” stuff God put there. Suppose it is waiting to be awakened. We’ll never see it. We’ll never see it if it lies dormant. It has to be identified and developed.

So, here is the problem. When we grow our identity in the world, we become like every other mutation out there instead of the person God made us to be.

When this happens, reflections of the deformities and dysfunctions in our world mold who we are, rather than the heart of Christ lying undisturbed within. Our true identity is like a seed.

All right, Father, initial thoughts?

[05:10] Marcus: Yeah. So you know, he was talking about a counseling client. I remember him telling the story, this client coming in who had been doing Immanuel prayer.

In Immanuel prayer, Jesus told him there’s a lot of stuff inside that wants to be like somebody else. And that first brought up scriptures and then it brought up this mirror neuron idea.

I think what’s interesting about this is, you think about babies. They learn largely through their mirror neurons about their identity. And that is, if you’re happy to see me, then I’m going to again, as he wrote, feel like somebody who brings joy to people generally.

And so before I am ever able to have a conscious thought about my identity, I already have formed, at the mirror neuron level. And that’s hard to say. Mirror neuron level. Anyway, you get the idea. Mirror neuron. At that level, I am learning about myself without words, and so there is something about my sense of self that is deeper than just the words that I say to myself.

That idea that there is a deeper part of my identity than the words themselves is captured kind of in this mirror neuron idea. And so what these neurons do is they can be good or bad, as he was saying, if we’re in a negative situation.

We tend to become like the people that we’re reflecting. And so this obviously has a lot to do with transformation. That if I tend to be like the people that my mirror neurons are reflecting from, that means I’ve got to have people in my life that I will be reflecting good things from.

And if I don’t have that, then I’ve got to find it in bits and pieces wherever I can. And it also affects even the way I think of God because, do I have any kind of a sense of God being happy to be with me or not?

And this is why if I have formed this baseline identity that says I am generally disgusting to people, it’s going to be very easy for me to assume God is disgusted with me.

If at the non-verbal level of my identity I feel like people are generally happy to be with me, it’ll be much easier to believe that God is happy to be with me.

And if I am somebody who’s starting with this – I make people angry, I make people disgusted, people are ashamed to be around me, all those things. If that’s where I’m starting, it just means I’m going to have a longer journey probably in building this out.

And it’s also why having connections with God in prayer, over time, can help to change this. And if I’m only addressing the narrative, if I’m only addressing the words part of my identity, then this mirror neuron level stuff doesn’t always get touched.

And that’s why it’s so important to have a community, to have groups, to have individuals in our lives who call out what is best in us.

[08:44] Stephanie: Yes, I love that. And on that note, as you were talking, I was just thinking about my own Bible study group and how we’ve started having a lot of different conversations about spiritual gifts and even just calling out of each other.

Just last night we were doing something together, and two people who have helps and service and stuff that are strong in their gifts went over and just started doing dishes.

One of the other guys in the group was just like, “You’re doing your spiritual gifting. Thank you!”  and just was like, calling it out of them. “You’re doing a good job, doing what you’re good at, you know, like what you’re offering.”

And I think about things like encouragement and exhortation and how as a community, there’s a level of how am I getting my identity when I’m in a community.

But there’s also this level of how are we as a community helping each other reflect the right things, helping each other call out the good, and call out that true identity, and help that maybe dormant seed or the little sapling grow, being intentional with that. I exhort you. Okay.

[10:00] Marcus: Yes, it’s good. It’s because if God has given us an identity and that identity is basically a seed inside of us, then we have to nurture and grow that seed. Part of what we’re saying here is you don’t do that just by reading your Bible and just by getting your theology right.

You get that, you nurture that seed and you develop it possibly even more deeply at the attachment level and through the relationships that we form. Paul says, in First Corinthians, and right now I think it’s 15:29, where he says, “Do not be misled. Bad company corrupts good character.”

Well, that’s an example, if I’m hanging out with bad people, Psalm 1 starts the same way. “Don’t stand in the street with wicked people,” kind of thing. On the flip side, if we’re hanging out with people who are calling out the best in us, then that’s going to have a character transformation energy to it as well.

I remember in discussing this with Jim, we were talking about what does it mean to form a group? And if I’m going to form my group around me, who do I need in that group?

And he said, “Think about it this way. Who do I need in my life this year in order for me to face whatever I’ve got to face and still act like myself?”

Who are the people who know me well enough, who can talk into my life well enough to help me stay myself as I handle the hard things and say, “Well, you know what? You’re not acting like yourself right now. It’s not like you to be coming at this problem this way.

“I feel like it’s more like you to stay relational and to find a win-win here,” or whatever it is. But you need people who you let in at that level and who know you at that level and can help call that out.

And it’s going to be different people in different situations. So you can’t just latch onto one person and say, you’re going to be the one. But we need groups. We need groups of people.

And those groups aren’t always all local either. I will say that. Sometimes they’re spread out.

[12:10] Stephanie: Yeah, well, and we need groups because oftentimes one person is strong in one area and weak in another, and another person is strong in the other area. So we help each other out.

I know a lot of people here, whenever we start talking about groups, and they’re like, “Well, I don’t have a group,” or, “My group is toxic,” or whatever, and we can’t address that fully here, but could you give some hope to the person who feels disconnected or hopeless there?

[12:34] Marcus: Well, it’s one of the reasons we have a podcast, right? Because at some level, you can actually share a little bit of connection with us in that way.

And there’s a way to feel like I’m a part of this tribe, I’m a part of this family, I’m part of what’s connecting here. And so that’s one level, but there’s another level of beginning to look at who is in your life and who used to be in your life?

Who is currently in your life, who do you see every day? Who do you see once a week? Who do you see once a month? And just kind of make an inventory of who is there. And then as you go through that, say, “Is there any way to add a little bit more joy into that relationship?”

If you’re In a toxic culture, like some people are in a toxic marriage, some people are in a toxic family where their parents are the toxic people, or they have some family member that’s making everything toxic, that tends to breed bitterness and fear and anger. And hopelessness.

And it triggers all of the negative emotions. We all need a break from the toxicity. And that’s partly why we have boundaries, partly why we do things like that.

But we also need to look at who is in my life that I might be able to build a little bit more joy with and then also begin praying, not necessarily that God will bring me a whole group that’ll just fix everything, but he’ll show me what the next step is that he would like me to take.

Actually, part of the maturity process is developing the skills to build my own community around me. And I don’t mean this negatively. This is just observationally.

Infant level maturity means I need somebody else to provide a group for me because I don’t have the skills to do that. If that’s where you’re at, that’s fine. It’s just part of the recognition.

It’s like I’m not at a place yet where I have the skills to build community wherever I go. So I need some help. I need somebody to help with this. And so you start by looking around for who can help me with this.

And then at the child level, I’m learning the skills of building this, but I need people collaborating with me to get this done. And then at the adult level and beyond, we hopefully have the skills to, wherever we go we can form relationship.

I’ve got one more tidbit I’d throw in there, but I’ve already talked for a while. I think of something Ed Khouri said a long time ago, and it was the key to making friends that always stuck with me.

What is the key to making friends? He said it can be boiled down to this, and that is to be the sort of person who, when people see you coming, they say, “My problems are about to get smaller.”

If you’re the sort of person who, when people see you coming, they’re like, “My problems are about to get bigger,” it’s going to be hard to make friends.

Now what that means is, I don’t want to lead with my big problems. I want to find ways to add a little value to them. Find ways to add a little joy to them, and not make everything about my problems all of the time.

[15:47] Stephanie: Right. It’s not an endorsement of people pleasing. It’s an endorsement of what you’re leading with, and how you’re being aware of others.

[15:55] Marcus: Right. And also that not every conversation needs to be about my problems.

[16:00] Stephanie: Right. All right. I had two thoughts. Let me see if I can hold on to them. One was that if you’re in a toxic relationship or in a toxic environment, it can be very easy to hold on to those things like bitterness or those unforgettable narratives.

And so I would encourage you to have a short account with those for yourself. You can’t control the other person, but make sure that you are tuned into yourself and with God in terms of not letting your narratives run amok. Forgiving and all of that will bring you more freedom than if you don’t.

And then second thought was in terms of community. If you’re making that inventory of a list and you’re like, “Well, it’s all still feeling bad.” A tip that I would give is, do you have any hobbies or anything?

Do you like to play board games? Do you like to crochet? Do you like to rock climb? Are there any hobbies that you’re like, you know what? I might be able to find a group who’s doing that thing and join that group. And that could be a way of extending your community. So those are my two thoughts.

[17:14] Marcus: It’s true. That’s why people do book clubs and things like that. Doing things that you love already usually gives you a chance to meet other people who love those things.

[17:27] Stephanie: And it’s easy to share joy over things together.

[17:28] Marcus: And it’s easy to share joy over those things. But we also want to make sure that somewhere in there, we have an anchor point of joy with Christians who are on our journey.

[17:37] Stephanie: Yes. And third thought, since you mentioned the podcast as a source, we have a Deeper Walk online community hosted on Mighty Network’s platform that I will also try to remember to put a link into the description there.

It’s free to join that community, and it’s just an online forum where people can chat and connect. We also host things like the Identity Course there. That’s an avenue for online community if you’re needing more online community.

So. All right, well, I think it’s time to… I think I just gave those shout outs. Identity course, great, on Mighty Networks, on our online community. Great. And as always, what we were reading today was from Rare Leadership.

So if you’re wanting more, that one was specifically from here. (I’m going to pull this book over. I am short, but I got it all right.) Specifically from the white, the original Rare Leadership book is what I read that section from today.

And yes, final thoughts, Father?

[18:45] Marcus: Well, since our thing was on “be like” and mirror neurons,  the idea here, again, is that God has put within us the potential to be like Christ. And we need people in our lives who reflect Christ, that we can see a little bit of Christ in.

And hanging out with people who have some Christ-likeness to them helps our mirror neurons see, “Oh, that’s what that’s like. I think I could do that.”

As I watch people, my mirror neurons are like, “Oh. So that’s what it’s like to be patient. That’s what it looks like to give a gentle answer. That’s what it looks like to practice maturity.”

Then I go, “Well, I think I could do that. I’ll try that next time.” And we learn. It’s one of the ways there’s a big part of us that has to see it modeled so that we know where it’s going.

And so my final thought here is that I think the essence of the mirror neuron thing is about seeing people who are doing Christ-like things to help us be more like Christ as we imitate them. And it’s one of the reasons Paul called people,  “Imitate me as I imitate Christ.”

[19:52] Stephanie: Very good. Talk to you more next week.

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