63: Lies (Belief-Based Identity, Part 3)

[00:07] Stephanie: Welcome to Deeper Walk’s On the Trail podcast. You are on the trail with father-daughter duo, Marcus and Stephanie Warner. I’m Stephanie, and I’ll be talking with my Father, Dr. Marcus Warner, as we discuss topics that help you stay on the trail to a deeper walk with God. Episode 63 today we are looking at how the devil affects our identity.

Hello, Father.

[00:28] Marcus: Hello, Daughter. We have a happy topic today, don’t we? How the devil affects your identity.

[00:34] Stephanie: Yeah. What he’s doing is not happy, but we have victory in Christ, and that is happy. I am going to do an icebreaker today. I had somebody tell me they really liked our “would you rather” and so I’m going to ask you, would you rather swim in a lake or an ocean?

[00:56] Marcus: I would rather swim in an ocean. I used to say lake but honestly, I just had a week at the ocean and I’m like, no, I can live with this. It was very nice. And frankly, a lot of the lakes I’ve been at lately have a little too much seaweed in them, and I don’t enjoy it as much. But I’m not going to complain, I love water.

[01:20] Stephanie: Yes. I would also say ocean. Once I am in the water I will enjoy it. I’m not somebody who’s like, oh, I need to get in the water. I love looking at the water and I enjoy lakes, but ocean yeah  would be good. Well, hey, we are a month out from our 35th anniversary conference celebrating 35 years of breakthrough. And I wanted to give you Dad, a chance to tell people a little bit more. We want to invite you and would love to see you in Indiana in person at this conference. That would be amazing. And it’s your first chance to hear teaching from Dad’s new book that’s coming out next year called Breakthrough. So Dad, you want to talk a little bit more?

[02:07] Marcus: Yeah, I actually just today got the first draft back from the editors on that and I need to go through all the content. But Breakthrough is, there are five engines that drive our emotions and you need a separate strategy for every engine. There’s going to be some fresh content and there’s going to be some new material. But if you’re like me, the thing I like most about conferences is just the chance to be with the people. And so you get to reconnect with old friends, you get to meet new people, you get to hang out, and there’s a sense of like, I am with my people.

And that’s really I think, the real strength of something like this. So the content I think will be good and we have some great speakers coming in besides me so I know the content will be good. It’s really the relational time that makes conferences like this so special.

[03:01] Stephanie: Indeed. I am looking forward to seeing all the people and so many of our staff will be able to be there as well, it’s great. Our ministry is virtual. We have people from Florida to California so we don’t get to see each other in person very often. I’m looking forward to that also. I guess I should have said that it is October 5, 6th and 7th. I mean, I said it was a month out.

[03:29] Marcus: Yeah. October 5, 6th and 7th. It’s in Hobart, Indiana, at the new Deeper Walk Training center there.

[03:36] Stephanie: And you can find out more details at our website and I’m sure it will be very prominently displayed on the front page there for you to find. Very good. Well, we’ve been talking about kingdom versus Kosmos identity and looking at the Kosmos identity of world, flesh and devil. So today we’re going to dig more into the devil things. We’ve already addressed how the devil interplays. It’s kind of hard to only talk about the world, flesh or devil, they all interact with each other.

The devil is the father of lies. We’ve talked about spiritual warfare basics several times on this podcast. So if you’re wanting to go even more in depth on spiritual warfare stuff go see our history of episodes. We have lots more there. But let’s build off of the world and the flesh. How Father, does the devil interact with the world and the flesh to affect our beliefs and identity?

[04:33] Marcus: Yeah, it’s a good question because I’ve been asked for years, how can I tell if it’s the flesh or if it’s the devil? Well, I kind of like Karl Payne’s simple answer to this. And he said he separates it this way. He says my flesh is that internal impulse to sin that goes with me everywhere that I go. And the proper strategy for dealing with the flesh is to replace the thoughts that are thinking in there. So if I’m laying on my bed and I’m just filled with fear or filled with lust or filled with anger, or whatever is going on. Or if I’m just depressed, the core solution is to replace the thoughts that I’m thinking with other thoughts. If I find that I just can’t do that and I can’t replace those thoughts then maybe something else is going on.

So the world on the other hand, would be the external impulse to sin. So, for example, that would be watching a TV show and something makes you angry or something makes you scared or something creates lust in what you’ve seen or makes you depressed. So now the world is what is triggering this thing that you’ve experienced. So the core idea that Karl Payne teaches is that you run. It’s like fleeing sexual immorality, like Joseph fled from Potiphar’s wife. But you can’t flee from the flesh so it’s an internal thing that you take with you. So it’s run and then it’s replaced but if those two things aren’t options, they’re not going to work. Now you should consider that this might be the devil and the core strategy there is resist. So we resist the devil and we make him flee. So let me give you a story because I think that’ll help.

[06:25] Stephanie: I love stories.

[06:25] Marcus: All right, so I remember my dad telling a story over and over and over again as a classic example of taking your thoughts captive. And there was a leader who came to see him when he was teaching at Trinity. And this leader worked overseas and he came to privately confess that he had a problem when he would go to worship services. And when the praise music would start he would start having a real battle in his mind with these sexually perverted thoughts. And it happened almost every time worship started. And he was like, what is wrong with me?  That was his question to my dad. What is wrong with me that this would be happening?

So you run it through the grid, the first one is the world. Well, are you putting yourself in a position where you’re seeing a lot of ****? And he’s like, no. I mean, years ago that was an issue but it’s been years and I’ve been really diligent about staying away from that. Is it the flesh? And my dad said, well, do you want to be thinking these things? He goes, well, no. He said, well, if you don’t want to be thinking these thoughts do you think God’s putting those thoughts there? Cearly it’s not God.

So if it’s not God and it’s not you what option have we not yet considered? Maybe it’s the devil. So my dad told him this. He said, the next time that you go to a worship service you just say, in the name of Jesus, I cut off any access any demons have to my thought life. If you start to get these thoughts you say, whatever spirit is bringing these thoughts to my mind I command you to leave in Jesus’ name.

And that guy came back later and he said, I just want to thank you for teaching me how to take my thoughts captive. Not only did that work the very first time I did it, it just stopped. But I began to notice that it was happening in my marriage where my wife would do things and I would immediately have this train of thoughts that would take off. And I said, no, in Jesus name I command the demons that are bringing these thoughts to my mind to get out of here. And those stopped and I realized, oh my word, how much of my thought life is run by the devil because I just never resisted him. So he said, I’m going back to the mission field as a different person. And it really all comes down to that.

[08:48] Stephanie: Yeah, that was making me think about how you see this a lot on social media where people will talk about, oh, the intrusive thoughts got to me. And sometimes it’s really funny. Like, the intrusive thought is totally harmless and it’s really funny. But sometimes people talk about intrusive thoughts and I’m just like, oh, honey, that is demonic. That’s not just a random dark thought that you’re having that you’re like, oh, that was weird that I had that thought. No, I want to teach people.

[09:22] Marcus: It’s amazing how many times when you read articles about mass shootings, and how many of these people have been in seances and done occult things beforehand and have opened the doors to dark, intrusive thoughts. And some of them will even say, the voices in my head were making me do this. And we assume it’s schizophrenia, but there’s a lot of people opening a lot of doors that are letting the devil bring in a lot of intrusive thoughts.

And it’s really a major problem in our culture right now. And our focus here is not so much to change the culture, it’s to change the church. We want to keep this out of the church. And anything we do to help culture is fine, but our priority here is let’s get Christians understanding how to live in victory over these things.

[10:14] Stephanie: Yes, indeed. Here I pulled a quote from A Deeper Walk that I liked. It says, “Given the fact that identity is so foundational to our new life in Christ, it is not surprising that Satan tries to give us a counterfeit identity. He uses the world to provide us one based on the flesh.” And I’m going to bring us back around to the idea of the super sheep that we brought up last time, which is how the devil tries to get us to see ourselves. Whether that’s through intrusive thoughts or wounds, so many different things he can use to get us to see ourselves in God differently.

But will you talk about this phenomenon? You’ve noticed that when Satan lies to you, it’s two sides of a coin. So when he lies it is attacking your identity and it’s attacking God’s identity. So can we talk about that more?

[11:11] Marcus: Yeah. So my identity and my view of God are directly related and that’s why I talk about them like two sides of the same coin. So picture this giant silver coin maybe six inches around and one side is my identity and the other side is God’s identity. So one is how I see myself and the other is how I see God. When I get wounded an arrow pierces that coin. Well, what happened? There’s now a hole on both sides of the coin which means that both my identity and God’s identity are under attack every time I get wounded. And so that’s kind of the way I picture it.

Now, where that connects to the super sheep is that if the devil’s a roaring lion and he’s looking for someone to devour, and I am a sheep and Jesus is the shepherd, then it gives us a nice little identity here. Sheep, shepherd, lion. Well, the lion wants to eat the sheep. So what is the sheep’s best defense? Well, for most of us it can feel like my best defense against the devil is to become super sheep. Like, I’m not afraid of the devil coming here, I will take you on. And that’s just stupid, right? Because I am not a match for him on my own.

[12:34] Stephanie: Yeah, the point is, in your own strength.

[12:36] Marcus: Yeah, I’m not a match for him on my own in my own strength. In many cases where I’ve encountered people who had something demonic speaking through them I’ve said that, this is not between you and me. I said, I know you’re stronger and you’re smarter and I don’t care. This is between you and Christ. So do you want to battle with him on who’s stronger and who’s smarter? I’d love to watch. So the devil comes after us and he wants to have us for lunch. He knows the secret to that is keeping us away from the shepherd.

[13:18] Stephanie: Because our best defense is being close to the shepherd.

[13:20] Marcus: Right. Because that is our only defense.

[13:23] Stephanie: Yes.

[13:23] Marcus: Our only defense against the devil is that the shepherd and his rod and his staff comfort me. Why do they comfort me? Because he’s using them on the line. That’s kind of the idea here. How is his rod and staff comforting? It’s because of what he’s doing to that predator that’s coming after me with them. So I want to be close to Jesus with these things. He knows that if he can shoot that arrow through the big coin what will happen is that I will feel bad about myself and think thoughts like, I’m such a bad sheep, the shepherd probably doesn’t want me around.

Or have you ever heard this one? I have to clean myself up before I can go back to church, or I’ve got to clean myself up before I can go talk to God. And I always think of a little kid who’s fallen down. Do you tell the little kid who fell down, why don’t you go get yourself all cleaned up and fix yourself and then go to your parents?

No, it doesn’t make any sense, you get them involved as quickly as possible so they can help you. It’s the same thing. As quickly as I fall, I want to get Jesus involved sooner than later to get me back on my feet to deal with what’s happened. So not only do the wounds make me think I’m unworthy of being around Jesus or he wouldn’t want to be around me. It also can cause me to doubt Him. It’s like, well, where was he? Why didn’t he protect me from this bad thing happening? Maybe he’s not as good as everybody says he is. Maybe there’s something dark about him that I can’t trust.

And so if I don’t trust the shepherd I will stay away from him, and the lion wins. If I feel like the shepherd doesn’t want me around because I’m such a bad sheep, the lion wins. So you can see why this would be such a fundamental strategy for the devil because he relies on our isolation to make us vulnerable.

[15:30] Stephanie: Yeah. So if you’re feeling isolated that would be one strategy, to assess. God am I believing something about myself or about you Lord that is causing this?

[15:42] Marcus: Well, and frankly, you can take this to the next level. I saw this wonderful documentary on sheep and shepherds by Joel Kramer on YouTube. He does Expedition Bible stuff and I love watching his stuff. And one of the things you noticed was that the sheep stay together in a cluster because they’re safer. It’s also one of the things that keeps them safe from the wolves is not only staying close to the shepherd, but staying close to each other. And you see that the sheep who end up getting eaten by the wolves are the ones who wander off from the pack and don’t stay with the rest of the sheep. And now the shepherd’s got to go find them and bring them back to the safety of those things. It’s fascinating. So if you want to get a better insight into what shepherding in the ancient Near East might have looked like, it’s a good little view. Again, that’s Joel Kramer and Expedition Bible on YouTube.

[16:39] Stephanie: Sheep, sheep. So to kind of start putting things together in a picture that people can see world flesh and devil at work, could you tell the story that you heard John Trent tell about the alcoholic father and the three sons?

[17:02] Marcus: I give credit to John Trent because I heard him tell this story in a speech, but it was like decades ago. So if I get some of the details wrong my apologies to him. But  there’s a mom and three boys and she was married to an alcoholic. And so one night the dad comes home, and this is not about the wife. My apologies to the women out there. This is going to focus on the three boys. And the dad comes home and he’s drunk and the husband and the wife get into a fight.

The next thing you know he strikes her while the oldest son flares up with rage, grabs the dad and throws him up against the wall. It’s like, don’t you ever hit my mother again you blankety blank blank. It’s like, you touch her again, I’m going to kill you. He’s like, I can’t take this anymore, I’m out of here. And with that the boy leaves, gets into his car, and tires go squealing off. He takes off leaving behind two younger boys and a hurting woman who can’t do that to their drunk dad. So the littlest boy goes running upstairs and hides under bed till it’s all over.

And the middle son is now left dealing with it. And he’s like, Well, dad, can I get you anything? Do you need your slippers? Do you want something to drink? What can I do for you? So what happens from this is that all three of these boys, again focusing on them, have been wounded by this event. They are all believing things about life and about themselves and about their dad and about how life works. And now they are all making vows about how they’re going to live life. So the oldest son’s vow is, I will never live with this kind of chaos. I will never live with anybody dealing with this again. I will stop it, I’ll fight and I’m going to use anger. And so what happens is that vow now gives shape to his life. He becomes a very angry person who relies on intimidation and being big with people, to keep them in line and to keep himself safe. The youngest child who ran away, if you’ve seen Forrest Gump, I always think of Jenny and Forrest Gump. And Jenny was abused by her dad in that movie and she developed the pattern of whenever things get hard, I’m out of here, I run.

And so that’s what happened to this boy. He ran and hid and it now became a pattern for him. Whenever life gets hard, whenever relationships get hard, you just duck and run and you’re out of there. And the third boy his vow was I’m not going to let this happen. I’m going to find a way to keep everybody happy. And he becomes a people pleaser. And at first he looks like the most mature one of the bunch but people-pleasing isn’t maturity. It looks like he’s going to succeed, but really there’s no way you can do that. And all three of them end up in disasters because of their flesh. The flesh that is making the vows is now what they are relying on for their protection. And so that is a classic example of how our vows can give shape and direction to the way that we live our lives. And why we need to deal with the wounds, the lies, and the vows underneath these things if we really want to see freedom from the strongholds.

[20:30] Stephanie: And can you speak to maybe how the devil might get involved in that scenario?

[20:36] Marcus: Clearly the devil I often say is like a shark. He doesn’t see blood in the water and says, they’re in enough trouble, stay out of it. So we don’t have to say, well, the devil sent the dad in there or anything, but the devil’s going to take advantage of stuff like that. And it’s not the devil, we’re talking about demons. We’re talking about the spirits that are part of that kingdom. And these spirits show up and they know their clients. In a sense they know what to do with each client.

And so they’ve got a different strategy with the oldest son and the middle son and the youngest son. They know what to go after. They know how they’re going to do this. And so they get in the whispering game and they don’t have to constantly whisper in somebody’s ear. You just have to plant the seed and then let it grow. Because as soon as I bite and I go, you know what, that’s true. That’s true now that I have believed it.

So the devil is the father of lies. Not in the sense that he is actively whispering every lie into our ears but every lie that we believe has its source, ultimately in the father of lies. And so there is a warfare element in saying no to those things, or if I have already said yes, renouncing the agreement that I have made that this is true. Commanding whatever has taken advantage of that to leave.

[22:01] Stephanie: So on that note, with the devil being the father of lies and the source of our beliefs that grow out of our experiences and such. Where do you commonly see the devil at work trying to affect our identity? We’ve talked a lot about individuals….

[22:19] Marcus: So the individual level and the wounds, but there’s also the cultural level right? When we think about the world it manifests itself through culture. And so in Jesus’ day there was a Roman culture, there was a Pharisee culture, there was a Sadducee culture, and there was the Jewish fishermen culture. There were a lot of subcultures. And the world, the kosmos, manifested itself in these different subcultures. And what would happen in each subculture was a belonging that happened, like, these are my people, this is who I am.

And my belonging to that subculture gives me my identity. So one thing Jesus is addressing in the Sermon on the Mount is, hey, just because you’re part of this group here doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t love the people in that group there. You should at least say hi to them. You should be good to them when you have the opportunity to be good to them. We live in a world today where we see this explosion taking place of subcultures that are giving people identities.

And so now people, many of them will only bond with people who are in their little subculture. They will only be good to people who are in their little subculture. They will only greet people who are in their little subculture. What happens is the peer pressure of these cultures gives them an identity and says, these are my people. This is what we do. And then out of that peer pressure it shapes my beliefs which then drives my values which then drives my behavior and things.

And that’s why some people when the exact same thing happens, you get diametrically opposite responses. Like some people go, yay, praise the Lord, this happened. Other people are like, I am so mad, that is so unfair, this is so wrong. Because their worldview gives them a completely different value system. And usually if you look underneath it the people that they’re with, are reinforcing whatever that is. So this is where you look at how the devil uses the world? He uses the world as a propaganda machine and peer pressure. Peer pressure is on belonging and propaganda then on the beliefs. And so it’s like, all right, we’re going to get you to the point where only people who believe these things can belong.

And there is some element of this even in the church. We don’t just throw the doors open saying that anybody who wants to can call themselves a Christian and be a part of the know. There’s church discipline that says, no, you actually don’t believe the right things, you’re not actually doing the right things. We need to correct this. That’s why Paul says be good to those who are of the household of faith, especially to them, but also to those who are outside the family. We are a family in the kingdom of God and we should be especially good at loving one another, being kind to each other. Interacting and remaining relational and acting like ourselves with people.

We practice so much with each other that we get good at doing this with those who are outside of our people or are not a part of it. So it’s not a universal invitation to belong to any particular group. It’s the idea that just because you belong to this group doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be kind or good to people who are outside of it. So there’s a big topic, right? This is one of the biggest things going on in our world today. But we understand how this is an identity issue because it’s trying to form this question of who are your people, who does that make you, and what kind of person are you? And there’s a propaganda that goes with that and if you buy into it that will drive the way you live.

[26:22] Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And I am sure we’re going to keep circling back on all these concepts as we continue on in the identity series. I am going to pause here and pull a note from one of our listeners. It’s a little longer, but it is lovely and it might encourage or inform some of our other listeners too. I just wanted to share this journey. Lindsay says, “I have spent the last four to five years being discipled by an amazing woman. During this time God has pulled this woman into the ministry of deliverance. So she’s walked me through the steps to freedom and also deliverance. What has happened or what has opened up for me is experiencing the Holy Spirit like never before. I have had a continual craving to know Jesus in a bigger and deeper way. So I was introduced to this podcast in early spring and what it’s given me is a language for what God has and is doing in my life.

It tied many things together for me. Most of all, it’s given me so much confirmation for the work that has been done in me and now what the Spirit continues to do through me. My favorite episodes have been “Real Prayer” and “Listening Prayer” as those have both been big tools for me and also tools I have given to others.

I have also really loved the episodes on the ways the devil gains ground in our lives. SOUL, the acrostic you paired with each concept or process has made the concept so much easier to digest and pass along, especially to my teenage children too. I have also enjoyed podcasts and books of joy. Again, I have been given a language for what has happened over the last few years as I have been discipled. My fear house has been torn down and I’ve been rebuilding my Joy house and it’s given me more tools to use for my ongoing journey to stay in joy. This podcast has just been such a great aid in my spiritual maturity. So grateful.

[28:12] Marcus: That’s amazing. And so thankful that she found somebody with those kinds of skills and those kinds of tools who could walk her through a journey like this. And that is one of the powers of a paradigm, is that it gives you a language and that’s part of the reason we do what we do. We’re trying to help people create and find a common language for talking about heart issues. That’s why we call it heart-focused discipleship. And that’s kind of what we’re after here is trying to introduce this vocabulary so that we can be on a common journey. It just reminds me that none of us are perfect but we’re on a journey and the common language helps.

[28:53] Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. So now we’re at the end of the episode, any closing thoughts?

[28:57] Marcus: On the devil? You know, it’s hard not to teach about this stuff without becoming self reflective. Because you do think about yourself and go, well, how am I doing compared to the way that I used to do? I’ve been teaching some of this stuff a really long time and realizing that sometimes it waxes and wanes, it ebbs and flows. And I found that one of the benefits of repeating things and going through them again and even listening to things again, reading books again, is that it can re spark something for you. And the Holy Spirit uses it as a reminder to say, yeah, you used to know all about this and maybe you thought you didn’t need it anymore, but the devil hasn’t gone away.

This is still a reality in your life. Maybe it’s a new season to step into this a little bit more fully and a little bit more aggressively. So just encouragement. We all go through seasons and just because you may have already been through a season where this was important, doesn’t mean that there might not be another time coming up to dive into some of this stuff again.

[30:20] Stephanie: Yeah, we look forward to being on the journey with you. Thanks for joining us on the trail. Today Deeper Walk exists to make heart focused discipleship the norm for Christians everywhere. If you’d like to support this cause you can become a Deeper Walk Trailblazer with your monthly donation of $25 or more. And if you want to keep going deeper with us on your walk with God, please subscribe to the On The Trail podcast, leave a review and share with your friends.

Thanks again. We’ll see you back next week.