36: Advent & Incarnation (Compilation Series)

[00:00] Stephanie: Welcome to the On the Trail podcast. In this week’s compilation episode, we are revisiting our Advent and Incarnation series. And so I couldn’t get Advent out of my mind. I just thought, I would love to do Advent. But then I also just kept thinking about the Incarnation. I don’t know how to describe this. I was thinking about Genesis, I was thinking about Isaiah, and I was thinking about the Gospels.

And it was all just kind of coming together to where I’m like, Dad, will you walk us through Genesis one? And you’re forming and filling and I promise we have a reason for it. And so I’m actually going to ask you that question in just a moment. But I wanted to pull back and actually start with what is Advent? And why do we care? Because I think some traditions really value it and some traditions don’t. So, yeah, I guess I’ll start with that question.

[00:54] Marcus: All right, so I grew up in a tradition that I didn’t even know there was such a thing as Advent for most of my life. We were two generations removed from Mennonite, and they were anti anything to do with the state church, that sort of thing. I began to realize once I became a pastor you deal with the inevitable materialization of Christmas and then I discovered Advent. I realized, oh, there is this tradition that’s really ancient in Christian circles. So taking these four weeks and using them to meditate and gathering the family.

And so we started doing the Advent wreath and candles at our church even though it was a non denominational church, and having different people share Christmas readings and family stories. And then at some point along the way I decided to write a little Deeper Walk Guide to Advent. Partly with the idea like, this is an awesome opportunity to get regrounded in the Incarnation. Because that’s really what Christmas is all about, is the incarnation.

And once you start getting grounded in the Incarnation, you realize you’re getting grounded in all of Christianity. Like, this is the foundation. This is the foundational stuff on which the whole faith is based. And so I would talk to pastors all the time who are like, I’m running out of Christmas material. I don’t know what to preach on, I do this every year and it’s hard to come up with another series. I’m, like, go back to the basics of the faith, man.

This is an opportunity to reset those foundations for people. And so that’s kind of what I look at as somebody who is sort of an outsider to Advent, but appreciates what it brings. Helping us just get our minds and hearts in the right place, to gather people for the right reasons, and to reflect on the foundations of the faith.

[02:54] Stephanie:  And it’s also a tradition that is easy to make multigenerational and to do as a family. Yeah, it’s very robust and wonderful. I’m glad that you brought it in. And for the next couple of episodes we will explore some Advent themes. We’re going to look at Incarnation and preparation, but we’re not necessarily going to walk you through, okay,  here’s how you’re going to light tonight’s candle. But there is as he mentioned, The Deeper Walk Guide to Advent at the Deeper Walk bookstore. And then you also have done at least one webinar on this topic.

If you just go to deeperwalk.com, then search for Advent, and our Advent things will come up for you. Honestly, here’s kind of how I was thinking about it, and we’ll see how the conversation unfolds. As I was contemplating the topic I was thinking about Incarnation in two ways,the idea of forming and filling. And also this picture of God walking with us. And just that’s pretty key to Deeper Walk. We often talk about how we walk with God, but I also want to look at it from how he walks with us.

And then the idea of preparation. I think we see from the very beginning in Genesis all the way through into the Gospels how God has been preparing us for his coming, and for life. We also see how we can prepare for Him and his coming. And so I want to touch on all of those things as we go. And I guess I’m going to come back and ask you that question. Genesis 1.

[04:44] Marcus: Yeah. Genesis 1. So it’s interesting, as a former Old Testament instructor and adjunct faculty, most of the times that I heard Genesis 1 taught, honestly, it was just an excuse to talk about young Earth versus old Earth. Evolution and stuff like that. And people did what I call, a way where you use the text as a window to the event underneath it, and then you talk about the event. And when I taught people regularly how to study the Bible one of the things I would tell them is, that’s not actually what the Bible is there for. It’s not there to be a window to an event that you go and unpack and exegete that event.

The Bible tells a story for a reason. We’re supposed to exegete the text. Asking ourselves the question more about when it comes to creation in Genesis 1,  not what clues does he give us to the creation story itself? Which is a fine discussion, but the main question we have to ask is, why did he tell us this information and not some other information? Why include this and not include the stuff that we’re so curious about, right?

We all want to know answers to important questions like did Adam have a belly button? The Bible doesn’t tell us these very important things. But we all want to know all kinds of questions about the beginning of the world that are left out. So you ask, why are these in here? And then the second is, why are they put in this order? Why are they arranged this way? So it has to do with selection and arrangement.

So why is this selected and why is something else omitted? Why are these things arranged the way that they are? And now what that does is it leads us to the author’s intended message. So if you hear that closely, author, A, intended I, message M, you get the word AIM. And it just is sitting there waiting for us to claim this acrostic saying, let’s take AIM at the text, by analyzing selection and arrangement to get at the author’s intended message.

[06:57] Stephanie: I just need to pause right here, because it’s a perfect opportunity. If you are excited about this Bible study method there is also a booklet at the Deeper Walk bookstore. The 3-2-1 Bible Study Method, that explains it. And also you have an e-course, Dad did an e-course that you can find. We love talking about the Bible. So if you want more Bible study tools, there’s a quick pitch.

[07:22] Marcus: All right, so Genesis 3, Genesis 2, Genesis 1. This is Genesis 1 that we’re on. Okay, so Genesis 1 doesn’t read the way you would expect for a creation story. So one of the things you notice right away is that there is an unformed planet that is dark, it is covered with water, and it is specifically said in Hebrew to be tohu va-vohu, formless and empty. And the only other time that phrase tohu va-vohu is used in the Old Testament is in Jeremiah.

When he’s talking about the devastation wreaked on the land by the invading Babylonian army and how the whole place was left formless and empty. It was just tohu va-vohu. And so what we get at the creation account is that on day one is kind of this picture of God or Jesus, if you will, standing on the planet Earth in a formless empty state. Dark, covered with water, and beginning the process of redemption. And not just creation, because there’s a planet there. So he’s redeeming this planet.

So again, in just a text standpoint and a literary standpoint of what the author is doing, his emphasis isn’t on the origin of the universe and things like this. It is specifically the creation of this garden planet. As you walk from dark, underwater, formless, and empty, it doesn’t take much imagination to realize that a lot of people would describe their lives that way. A lot of people feel like my life is dark, my life is empty. I feel like it’s lacking shape and direction. I even feel like I’m drowning underwater. But it says the Spirit of God is hovering there. He’s close to the broken-hearted. In this case, he’s close to the broken planet and he’s hovering there. And God is going to take the whole planet on this six day transformational journey and then he rests. If you go to the Bible Project, the kind of cartoon little videos on the Internet, theirs on Genesis 1 is actually quite good. It walks through some of the same things I’m going to walk through today.

And one of the points they emphasize is that there’s a concluding statement, and it was good, and it was good with each thing. Then you get to the last day, the 7th day, and it’s a place of rest. And it’s as if God is now inviting anybody who wants to to enter into that rest with Him. It’s sort of like the 7th day stands as an invitation.

So what happens in Genesis 1 is this redemption story in which a broken, dark planet is transformed into a place that is good. It is blessed and it is a place at rest. A place specifically where we can enter into God’s rest with Him. And so there’s a quick overview of where Genesis 1 goes and why it’s so significant for the whole idea of emotional healing. And it also is going to lay a good foundation for the rest of where we want to go.

[10:38] Stephanie: Yeah, so let’s go there. Can you start connecting some of those Genesis 1 principles to the Christmas story?

[10:46] Marcus: Yes. So when you get to forming and filling, let me first just walk through that. The first three days of creation have to do with forming what was formless. And the next three days have to do with filling what was empty. And so with forming you get light. You get sea and sky, and you get land. And those have to do with separating the light from the darkness. Separating sky from sea and separating land from water. And then separation creates categories and it creates forms.

Even the plants reproduce after their kinds and God is giving order to things. He’s giving shape to things. He says there’s a purpose for this. And then he starts filling it. Different lights that are parallel. There are fish and there are birds parallel to the sea in the sky. There are animals and humans to fill the land. And with all of this what we see is God’s ultimate purpose for the world, that he is creating this beautiful home where he can live with his people.

He wants us to live with Him in this place of rest, in this place of beauty. And the Christmas story wouldn’t be needed if it wasn’t for what happens after this. And that is the fall of man and the exile from the garden and the fact that we’ve lost all of this. And so the connection to the Christmas story on the front side is simply Genesis 1, helps us to understand why there is this deep longing inside all of us for something more. For something eternal, for something good, for something at rest, for peace, and for blessing.

There’s a deep longing that every human being has regardless of whether they are a Christian or not. And it hearkens back to our origin. And then now the incarnation in Christmas has to do with the lengths God was willing to go, to to make sure that his original purpose for creation was fulfilled. And that people had this opportunity to enter into a walk with him in which they could experience what was good, what was blessed, and what was at rest.

[12:54] Stephanie: Amen. How hopeful.

[12:56] Marcus: How hopeful. Yes.

[12:59] Stephanie: As I was processing through this I just kept thinking, yes, this is a story of hope. This is a redemption story. And can you speak a little bit more to the Incarnation itself? The Incarnation, I see it through the Old Testament all the way into the New Testament. Can you substantiate that?

[13:19] Marcus: Well, yeah. So the word Incarnation means to embody something, to put it in a body. And so what we have in Genesis 2 the very next thing, is the description of how God kind of gets down on his hands and knees and forms stuff out of the dirt. He creates a body and breathes his life into it. And from the very beginning God is associating Himself with humanity. He says, it’s going to be my life that is living in these people. And the very idea of breath we even talk about from your first breath to your last breath.

And there is this idea of ashes to ashes and we’re going to go back to dust. And so everything about the creation account itself lends to the idea that God made us unique. We’re not like the angels who have some other kind of body that we can’t quite describe. He made us out of the earth and he made us to be connected to the earth. And in our redemption, to redeem his purpose for creation. To redeem his purpose and desire to want to be with us. What Incarnation shows is the lengths that he was willing to go to. He said, I’m going to take on a dirt suit, if you will. I’m going to let myself be encased and embodied in this human body I made out of dirt.

And it’s just the most humbling thing that you can imagine. It’s also mind boggling. It’s really almost impossible to wrap your head around the idea of an infinite God being wrapped in the limitations of a human body. But it shows us the extent that he was not just willing to go to, but that he did go to. And he not only did that, he didn’t just show up and say, well, here I am now, worship me, he came as a servant. He came among those who were poor. He made himself a servant to all. He modeled what the Father is like so nobody has to wonder about it anymore.

Like, I wonder what God’s really like. Well, look at Jesus and you’ll get a pretty good idea. Then to humble himself to death and even death on a cross, and you realize it is impossible to miss how trustworthy and how loving he is. And as Paul says, how can somebody who gave us all of this not with Him freely give us all things? It’s pretty remarkable. Now you’ve been thinking about this a bit as you’re getting ready. So I’m curious too, how do you connect creation and incarnation? Where are some places you see the connection?

[15:56] Stephanie: I see so much of how God is with us. From Jesus being born into a human body is the ultimate example of incarnation. But all the way through the Old Testament, he is with us. Build me a tent. I’m walking with you, I’m guiding you. You  literally have people walking with Him in Genesis. Then just also his care for the real world issues. The Bible is not just metaphysical. Like, oh, sync with this understanding that you’re going to have to meditate on really hard to understand, because there’s nothing connected to the real world in it.

[16:49] Marcus:  It’s not platonic. It’s like, hey, you’re in a cave and these are all shadows, so don’t worry about it.

[16:55] Stephanie: Yeah. And I mean, there are mysteries. There are things that we can’t understand, and they are addressed in the Bible. But there is so much incarnational wisdom, I guess I would say, throughout the Scriptures. You see Him caring about the physical needs of people. Working through the physical hands and feet of people, and sometimes even Himself.

[17:18] Marcus: You could sort of put it this way. You can summarize the entire theology of the Bible with one preposition, and that is the word “with”. All of Christian theology, all of Biblical theology comes down to the word “with.” That God wanted to be with us,and he created a world where he could be with us. He created us with bodies and in his image in a way where we could be with Him.

And then we see that theme continue on. Even in his pain of having to exile the people that he wanted to be with. He’s like, well, I’m going to launch this whole strategy through the promise, through the covenants, and through the election of the people of Israel. Through all that we’re doing here to bring the intended blessing that I’ve always wanted so that we can be with each other. And you think about what salvation is all about in the New Testament, salvation is about restoring our ability to be with God. And so the tabernacle especially embodies this.

And so in John, chapter one, verse 14, it says, the word became flesh and lived with us In a sense, lived among us. And the purpose of the tabernacle was that God wanted to be with his people. He wanted to be at the center of his people. And so the tabernacle was right at the center of the whole camp. And John doesn’t use just any Greek word in 1:14, as you well know. He uses the Greek word skēnoō. The idea is to tent with somebody.

But it’s not just any tent. He’s not like, let’s go camping together. It’s a direct reference back to the tabernacle tent and saying that Jesus came to be with us so that we could be with Him. And so you can just unpack this and unpack this, and unpack this. But what it really comes down to is that the incarnation is about God wanting to be with us, and the lengths he would go to so that we could be with Him. And creation itself is about God’s whole preparation for this one overarching desire that he wanted to be with us, and us with Him.

[19:27] Stephanie: Huzzah! All right, more next week. I’m just going to take a moment to thank the listener who submitted a book recommendation to me via the On the Trail mailbox form. Listen to this. The Meaning and Translation of ἰδού and ἴδε ‘behold’: A Construction Grammar Analysis by Nicholas A. Bailey. Just saying that title brings a smile to my face. I have not read it yet, but I love that you caught my mention of the grammar of behold and sent that my way. It delights me and I hope I can get to it. It sounds awesome. And so, yeah, while we’re talking Greek, if there are any other technical nerds…..

[20:09] Marcus: I want to buy an  ἰδού and ἴδε

[20:13] Stephanie: Any closing thoughts for this episode?

[20:19] Marcus:  As we wrap up this time and we enter into the Advent season it’s a four week journey, where we have the opportunity to set aside time specifically to reflect on the Incarnation. On the idea that the Word became flesh and lived among us. And that usually in many traditions the first concept here has to do with repentance. Now, they might call it hope or they might call it something else. But what they’re really talking about is let’s start preparing our hearts.

Let’s start asking God to show us, is there something in my life that is keeping me from being with you and the way that you want to be with me? And let’s ask, God is there something of which I need to repent? Because that thing is getting in the way of us being together in a way that would be good for both of us. And so as we’re wrapping this up, I would just encourage people that Advent almost universally starts with this idea of repent because there’s hope, and because God wants to be with us.

[21:25] Stephanie: Today let’s continue the conversation with another angle that kind of blends Old and New Testament. So this is going to be on high priest theology. So, honestly, in one of your earliest books, The Deeper Walk Guide to the Bible, you talk about this. It’s in the chapter on Anointed One. And if you’re familiar with PLAXN.com, everybody can go back to prior episodes or just look up www.plaxn.com. That’s actually a live website. Alright, Jesus is the anointed one who fills many roles, one being high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

[22:06] Marcus:  First of all, we want to know who Melchizedek is and what in the world it means to be in his order. So let’s just explain the priesthood quickly for those who are not scholars in this area. First of all, the priesthood that served in the temple was the Levitical priesthood, which means they came from the tribe of Levi and they were priests. Not because they earned it, not because they went to school for it, and not because they were more holy or more moral than other people.

Ancestry was what got them their position. They had to show that they were ancestrally related to Levi and specifically to Aaron’s family within the tribe of Levi. So the Messiah comes from the tribe of Judah and yet the Messiah is a priest, and in fact, he’s the high priest. So how do we explain this? Well, there is another order. There’s the Levitical order, the Aaron order. And this goes back to Melchizedek. Well, Melchizedek is this really unique character in Genesis 14 where he’s not given any genealogy.

Now, normally it says the son of so and so, the son of so and so. Well, Melchizedek is given no genealogy. He just sort of shows up on the stage. He is the king of Salem. And the word Salem in Hebrew is Shalom. He’s the king of peace, which is just dripping with meaning. And he is the priest of El Elyon, and El Elyon is God most High, which is the God of Israel. The God who is later known as Yahweh. So he is king and priest. He’s unique in this way. There’s a lot of parallels to Jesus in Melchizedek in that he has no genealogy per se. It’s like, while Jesus is the son of David, son of Abraham, but in another sense he’s the son of God. He is just on his own.

But it also means that his priesthood, Melchizedek’s priesthood, was not based on his ancestry. In the same way Jesus’s priesthood is not based on his ancestry. He’s simply appointed by God. And so when it says you are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, that would be those priests who are simply declared priests independent of Levi.

[24:35] Stephanie: This is a crash course. I do want to pause real quick and circle back to the “no” genealogy thing because clearly, Matthew literally starts with Jesus’s genealogy. So could you explain that comment a little?

[24:48] Marcus: Yeah. What I mean by that is as I said, even though he is the son of David, son of Abraham, and he has a genealogy, his priesthood is not based on his genealogy. So his priesthood is based on the fact that he is a priest from a different order. And they’re like, well, what order is there? And it’s Melchizedek. There have been a lot of hypotheses about who he is. Is he actually a character named Melchizedek? Some have postulated that he’s Shem.

Because if you take a literal look at the dating in Genesis Shem would have still been alive at that point. There are some people who think he was a supernatural being, that perhaps he was the high priest of the temple in heaven. I mean, there’s been a lot of postulations about Melchizedek. The reality is none of us are sure who he is. What we do know is that he’s an example of somebody who was great because Abraham paid tithe to him. He blessed Abraham and he was a priest of God most high. And so Jesus is in that same order. So Jesus does not trace his ancestry back to Levi and thus is a priest that way, he is a priest like Melchizedek. That was simple, right?

[26:06] Stephanie:  Yeah, so simple, so simple. So what about this high priest theology?

[26:13] Marcus: So Hebrews is where this is spelled out the most. And in Hebrews, chapter four, one of my favorite verses in the Bible. Hebrews 4:16, says, “Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” I can boldly come with confidence into the presence of God. And it’s called the throne of grace, which I love. I’m not coming here and God asking for help because I’ve earned it or because I’ve been especially good. I’m coming here simply based on grace.

And what leads into this verse that I can come and ask for help is actually the whole message of Hebrews, which I could take a little time to unpack here. But the high priest theology specifically is that we are coming before Jesus, who is sympathetic with our weakness and understands that we’re just dust, we’re frail. And it ties to a lot of other things going on in Hebrews. For example, this is very close to where we read about that the word of God is alive and active and can divide, right?

Dividing between soul and spirit and discerning the inmost thoughts. It says we all have to stand before our Creator who knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Which is a super scary idea, right? Because it’s like, wait, I have to give account to somebody who understands my thought life, who understands what the intents of my heart are.

And it’s out of God knowing our thoughts and intents, and the Word of God being able to divide between all of these things, that we read about a high priest who understands our weakness. He gets the fact that, okay, we’re not perfect people. Some of our thoughts are just outright not good. And yet when we come before Him, we can still come before Him boldly because he gets us. He understands the weakness that we’re living with.

The other thing that gives us some meat, if you will, especially in the book of Hebrews, is the overall message of the book of Hebrews is written to Christians, who are going through persecution. Who are in danger of falling away because of the persecution. It’s like, you know what? I’m tired of all of this. The confiscation of property, people getting arrested, and all these things. It would be easier if I just sort of became a Jew. It’s hard for us to imagine that in the world in which we live there was a day where you had more protections as a Jew, than a Christian. But in the early days of Christianity, the Jewish faith was protected by Roman law and Christianity was not.

And so one of the ways you could get out of the persecution was by saying, I like Jesus, but I’m just a Jew and I’m following the Torah and doing all of that. So the person writing the book of Hebrews is addressing people who are in a very real way being tempted to kind of fall away, to give up on this, and to take an easier path. The book is written as an encouragement. And so because the easier path is just going to Judaism, the book is filled with the fact that Jesus is so much greater than Moses.

There’s nothing to compare here. Jesus is so much greater than this Old Testament character. And he’s like, understand who you’ve come to, understand what the choices are, understand what’s going on here. But with this also comes, well, if I’m being encouraged not to fall away and I know how weak I am, where do I find help? It’s like I’m this very weak person. I don’t want to fall away. There’s that old famous hymn, prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love.

I think all of us struggle with this at times where we’re feeling weak in our faith. We are worried that if I faced persecution that I wouldn’t hold up, that my weakness would shine through. And so he’s addressing that saying, well, we have a great high priest. We have a great high priest who understands our weakness. And he says, you can come boldly before me in your weakness and find the mercy that you need. Mercy implies that I probably failed somewhere along the line here and I find the grace that I need for what I’m going through.

So the context of the high priest theology is, one, the high priesthood of Jesus is superior to the high priesthood of the law. So why would you leave the high priesthood of Jesus to go back to the high priest of the law? That’s ridiculous. But two, is the idea that I know you’re weak, I know you’re afraid of how you’re going to respond to persecution, but we have a high priest who understands our weakness, and we can come boldly before him. And tying it all together with incarnation…..

[31:28] Stephanie: You stole the question right out of my mouth.

[31:31] Marcus: Yeah, go ahead. Why don’t you ask this question? Because I’ve been talking nonstop for a while.

[31:35] Stephanie: I also just have to say, Hebrews is so epic. I literally have the word epic written in big bold letters in the margins as you open up, because it’s epic. So if you haven’t done a study, I encourage you to do so. But yes, Father, how does high priest theology inform our understanding of the Incarnation?

[31:53] Marcus: That’s a good question. I’m glad you asked. High priest theology is not possible without the Incarnation. In other words, Jesus had to become flesh in order to be our representative. In order to represent the flesh before God he had to become flesh. And so he became one of us. And that’s kind of the point here, he passed through the heavens. He didn’t stay this heavenly being detached from all of us. He passed through the heavens. He became one of us, and thus he can represent us to God and God can say, all right, well, your representative got this right, so I will accept Him. I will accept everything that he did as your substitute.

Incarnation was essential in order for us to experience forgiveness and, in order for us to receive purification of our sins which is Hebrew’s favorite term. The book of Hebrews favorite term for our salvation is purification, which is interesting because if the temptation is to turn to Judaism and to turn to the Law, he’s like, you don’t need that kind of purification.

These priests had to offer sacrifices for themselves first and then for others and it never ended. You have once and for all received purification from your sins. It is done. It’s like, why would you walk away from this to something else? And so all of the arguments in Hebrews keep coming back to this and it is all made possible because of the Incarnation. And so the Christmas season, Advent season, we contemplate the fact that this miraculous thing happened in which God became a human being and lived among us as one of us.

We understand that one of the most amazing things that came out of that was the high priesthood office that Jesus now fills as the representative of humanity in the courtroom of heaven. It’s pretty cool. It’s like, who represents us in the courtroom, it’s not Enoch, it’s not Elijah. It’s not Moses. It’s Jesus. It’s the son of God himself. And he represents us before humanity. That gives us tremendous confidence when we go before the throne of grace.

[34:12] Stephanie: Press into that. How does high priest theology prepare us for Advent? What can we do to practically participate in Advent, thinking about the high priest theology?

[34:25] Marcus: Well, I know that different weeks of Advent often have different qualities associated with them, peace is one of those. And you think about the peace that I have in knowing that my sufficiency and my security does not rest in my behavior, or my performance. It rests in my representative. And because Jesus is my representative and he is the one before me, that I can come to Him with boldness. Really the only mistake I can make is walking away from all that, falling away from all of that. So whatever you think about that aspect of theology the point here is, that if I mess up, I have a high priest who understands my mess up. If I have given in to something I know I shouldn’t have given in to in a time of weakness I have a high priest who understands that.

That gives me a lot of peace. I think of this way. I talk to a lot of people who will say things like, I’ve gone too far. There’s no going back for me. I’m like, nope, because we have a high priest who understands our weakness and who understands what it’s like. And I think that includes understanding the trauma that informs the way we look at life. Understanding the things we didn’t get in life that predisposed us to go directions we shouldn’t have gone. He understands all of those forces and all of those factors. Whether it’s A, trauma or B, trauma and all the other things that go into it, he gets it. He understands.

[36:00] Stephanie: So I remember when I first heard you talking about this topic that you can’t have gone too far. Is what you’ve done bigger than all the people for all time? Like, oh, that was the cherry on top. That was the straw that broke the camel’s back. You went one too far.

[36:25] Marcus: It is ridiculous. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. And again, whether you take that as if he died for all the sins of all of the elect, or if he died for all of the sins of the whole world literally. You still end up having millions, if not billions, of people whose sins have been born. You’re like, if his sacrifice covered all that, is there  realistically a number of sins you personally could commit that are too far? That is too much and it can’t be covered. It doesn’t even add up. So in talking to people who wonder, have I committed the unpardonable sin? What I normally tell them is, you wouldn’t be worrying about it if you had, right? Because if you’d committed the unpardonable sin the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be trying to bring you back into a relationship with God. You wouldn’t be craving a relationship with God. You wouldn’t want to make it right. That’s a sign that God is drawing you.

If you want to be right with God and you want to get things right with God, you can get things right. It’s there for you. There’s no such thing as committing the unpardonable sin and then wanting a relationship with God, because the only people who come to God are those that he draws. He draws them through the work of His Holy Spirit. So I just tell people all the time if you’re worried about that, you can stop because you wouldn’t be worrying about it if you’d actually committed it.

[37:57] Stephanie: Very good. All right, I’m going to pull a quick, sweet note from one of our listeners. She says, “Because you are friends and I trust you, I listen. In the car, fixing supper, eating lunch, with others or not, I tune into On the Trail as an unabashed loyal follower.” And thank you for that sweet note. It blesses our hearts. Father, we need to wrap up this episode.Any closing thoughts?

[38:23] Marcus: Read the Book of Hebrews this Advent. I think it can be intimidating for some people because it talks a lot about Melchizedek and New Covenants and Old Covenant, and a lot of Old Testament stuff in there. But I encourage you to pay attention to the “so thats” when you’re going through there. If you didn’t understand anything else, it goes, well, all of this is true “because of that”, or “so that,” we can come with confidence before God. Paying attention to what it is that Christ has done for us because he became human and because of his incarnation. And I think you’ll be blessed.

[39:02] Stephanie: Genesis, all the way through the Hebrew Scriptures, we see God’s incarnational presence until we come to the ultimate incarnation of Christ, when the Gospels depict his human birth. And I think it’s really important to note how much he has cared to walk with us.

So first, I think you’ve done a great job of talking about the Incarnation in a way that people would understand in the prior two episodes. But I realized we didn’t address the word itself. It might be one of those churchy words that people are like, you keep using this word, I do not understand. So could you give a quick explanation for what it is? Incarnation.

[39:40] Marcus: So when I hear incarnation, honestly, my first thought is Carne Asada. It’s  like carne because it’s the Latin word for meat or flesh or body. God who is spirit, came in carne, flesh. And so the Incarnation is this mysterious thing. How can the infinite, all knowing, all wise, all powerful God, have limited himself in such a way that he could become a baby? And go through the nine month process of being in a woman’s womb to go through the birth canal.

And it leads to all kinds of speculation and questions, like, at what point did he have self awareness? At what point did he remember eternity? At what point did he learn all this? Was he born knowing he was still being the one who held all things together? How did this work? There are so many questions.

[40:57] Stephanie: That’s a deep theological pool.

[41:00] Marcus: Yeah. Well, but this is the kind of thing that Christians used to meditate on.

[41:06] Stephanie: Exactly.

[41:07] Marcus: In terms of how does one worship? Because worshipping God and meditating on the profoundness of what he has done, is one of the ways that we worship. And so the simple answer of God becoming flesh. Now we look at not just how did that happen? And how does that even work? And then the question of, why did he do it? And so we’ve sort of been camping out on why he did it, but it is one of those things that’s worth pondering, and thinking through how that all happened. Because it shows the humility of God. Your grandfather, my father, used to say that part of God’s greatness is his ability to limit himself.

He’s like, if God couldn’t limit himself, he would in some ways be a robot who just had to do whatever the maximum thing was that he could do. But his ability to limit himself and to not force everything to happen, to not be fatalistic and not cause everything that happens to happen. To limit himself in the incarnation is actually part of the greatness of God. He is so limitless that he can limit himself, if that makes sense. So it really is a marvel. And obviously, we could spend quite a bit of time just dwelling on that.

[42:41] Stephanie: Oh sure.

[42:43] Stephanie: Yeah. Just like the church fathers and mothers did. So I would also just add to that in very practical terms that incarnation has to do with embodiment. And you can even hear the word in perhaps a more commonly culturally used term, reincarnation.

[43:05] Marcus: Reincarnation means let’s get incarnate again.

[43:10] Stephanie: Right. Embodied again, but that’s a different topic. But in terms of placing it in people’s minds on what it means. All right, well, let’s continue on with this understanding of incarnation. I want to know what is your practical understanding for incarnation in terms of God with us?

[43:37] Marcus: Yeah, we’ve been kind of focusing on this idea of “with”. That God wants to walk with us. I remember one of the first talks I ever gave at a Deeper Walk conference. It was 2008 and one of the very first ones was from Genesis 5 genealogy. If you only get one shot at talking to people, always preach from a genealogy.

[44:11] Marcus: The Genesis 59 genealogy is actually packed with all kinds of interesting things that it would be easy to gloss over. But one of them is that each generation, there’s ten generations there, they each end with the terms, and then he died. Except one person, the 7th from Adam. Enoch doesn’t end with, and he died. And so it immediately draws your attention to Enoch and go, okay, so what’s different about this guy? It focuses your attention very dramatically.

And not only that, but everybody else is living 7, 8, 900 years, and he’s gone in 365. He doesn’t die. What’s the key? And twice we read about him, that he walked with God. And that gives us a very clear indication in a literary sort of way, of what it is that God’s looking for from us. He wants us to walk with him. That was the key. And so when it summed up what it was about Enoch that brought him eternal life, if you will, that brought him all this, it was that he walked with God.

And then later we see the same phrase, walking with God, used of Noah to describe what made him special. We see it used of Abram and Abraham that he walked with God and even of Adam and Eve. What they were doing in the garden is a term described as walking. God was walking in the cool of the evening. So one of the reasons for that is the Hebrew doesn’t actually have a word for relationship. There’s not a Hebrew word that we would translate, God wants to have a relationship with you. So walking is a metaphor for relationship. Someone said, the person walked with God. What they’re saying is he had a relationship with God.

They were intimate and they had conversations. When we look at what it looks like to have a walk with God, one of the other things that jumps out at us from the Book of Genesis is how much God speaks. He speaks to create the world, but then he appears to Abraham and talks to him. He appears to other people and talks to them. He talks to Noah.

And you begin to realize it’s like he’s communicating on a regular basis with his people. So something about walking with God involves being in a listening, conversational connection with him. And then it is characterized by trust. And the way you know you trust God is you actually do what says. When he told Adam and Eve don’t eat this fruit we know that they didn’t trust him because they ate the fruit. And when we say that Abraham trusted God we know that he did.

He was so sure that Isaac was the chosen seed that he was willing to put him to death, believing he would be raised from the dead as Hebrews tells us. And so you look at all this and the connection between walking with God and between that trust that leads to obedience. Part of how we know what to trust is through what God communicates to us. And so he communicates to us in a variety of ways and ultimately through Scripture. But primarily the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is even the author of Scripture. So all of God’s communication to us is through Spirit.

And you think about it also then that the Incarnation is the logos, or the word becoming flesh. And in a sense, it’s also an effort of God to communicate with us. That’s why again, the book of Hebrews can open with, in the past he spoke to us through prophets, but in these last days he’s spoken to us through his Son. So you can’t separate this idea of communication from relationship and walking. Hopefully, you’re not walking in silence, but you’re walking in conversation.

You’re also then walking and growing in your trust that is leading you to greater obedience and quick obedience. And it’s one of the things that amazed me about Abraham, was not only when he was told to take Isaac and offer him as a sacrifice, but it says he did it the next morning. It’s like he got up and he obeyed quickly. And I think that that’s one of the other signs of faith, is that the more our faith grows, the quicker we are to do what God is asking us to do.

[49:02] Stephanie: Yeah. In saying that, if I remember correctly in the Hebrew, I had to translate that as a project in school. And I’m pretty sure it was not just the morning, but the early crack of dawn. It strikes me that when you talked about Adam and Eve and the walking, it was also God walking in the cool. It’s not just about us having to walk to where he is. He comes to us. 1st John 4:19, “We love because he first loved us”. He draws us, he comes to us. That’s part of the incarnational nature of him that he’s not just sitting on his mountain waiting for us to climb up to him, he’s coming down to us. He is walking with us and he is seeking us and then we seek him in turn.

[50:01] Marcus: And what happens when we walk with God, in a sense the incarnation expands because Christ now wants to incarnate himself in us. The Holy Spirit now living in me has a chance to live through my flesh. And Galatians 2:20 says this very clearly. In fact, let me get it up here so that I get it correct. All right, I won’t read in Greek. What I found interesting about this is it says, “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live”. So most of us are familiar with this verse. If not, we’re familiar with the Philip Craig and Dean song. So I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

My life is now becoming an extension of Christ’s life and so he is now incarnate in me. And it says, the life I now live in the flesh. And the Greek word there actually isn’t so’ma, which is the word for body. It’s the word sa’rka, which is the word for flesh. And so it’s interesting that it uses the language of incarnation. The Latin word for sa’rka would be carne. It actually might be a different ending.

The point here is not the Latin word, but that Christ wants to reproduce his life in us. And that’s why Paul ends with the life I live. I’m not living anymore, but Christ is living in me. And ultimately that’s what our walk with God is all about, wanting Christ’s life to be incarnate within us. And that requires something on our part, right? That’s what we call the crucified life. Because I have been crucified with Christ I now need to live a crucified life in which I am fully surrendered to Christ. Now, none of us does this perfectly. We’ve already talked about our weaknesses and the high priest and all that. I think it still lays out that our best life, if you will, is a crucified life. And it is one in which we are trusting God, obeying him quickly, and through the Holy Spirit living within us, we’re developing that conversational walk with God.

[52:32] Stephanie: So, good. Can you draw that into the Christmas season, into Advent?

[52:40] Marcus:  Well, yes. One of the things that we’re doing at Advent is we are preparing our hearts for a connection with God. And you think about, what does it look like to prepare your heart? And it means first of all, that you stop. You slow down and give yourself some space to meditate, some space to think. One of the things we think about is, God, what is getting in the way of my walk with you? What is hindering me from being closer to you, from having Christ more incarnate within me? What’s getting in the way?

One of the things we teach at a Deeper Walk is there’s three main things that do this. One, there is something we need to repent of that is keeping us from that kind of the walk we’re looking for with God. Two, there’s somebody we need to forgive. And sometimes we need to forgive ourselves. Sometimes we need to forgive God and sometimes we need to forgive somebody else. And thirdly, it’s often that we are in bondage to lies that we’re believing. Often because of pain in our past and wounds from our past. We are believing lies that keep us from trusting him and keep us from pressing in. And so you look at all that preparation and Advent has to do with this.

So Advent season traditionally has started with a time of repentance. But largely, when you think about repentance it’s not just repentance from actions, but you can kind of bring repentance from false beliefs into that. And even repentance from the bitterness that we’ve held onto instead of forgiveness. And all of that is part of how Advent connects to preparing ourselves for that deeper walk with God.

[54:23] Stephanie: Thank you. You’re very impressive, Father.

[54:28] Marcus: That’s my goal.

[54:31] Stephanie:  didn’t really prepare you for that question, and that was a great answer. All right, let me pull in a note from one of our listeners. She writes, “I just wanted to say I really appreciate that you all are going over what authority we have in Christ regarding spiritual warfare. This has been a relevant subject in my life currently, and I have been seeking God in prayer about this topic. It has been a huge blessing to me to hear your episodes where you all have been discussing this topic. Thank you so much.” Thank you for listening and thank you for that feedback. All right, Father, end of this episode. Any closing thoughts?

[55:15] Marcus: The Galatians 2:20 idea of the crucified life and walking with God. The story that always comes to my mind is the classic, My Heart, Christ’s Home, it’s been around for a couple generations now. I think it was written by a Presbyterian minister. And it starts off with the idea of inviting Jesus to come into your life, and he moves in and immediately some things change. Just his presence in your life brings life and something has changed. And he lights the fire in the fireplace and there’s a new warmth. He brings music to the home and all these things.

And there’s just this notable change that takes place because he’s moved in. And then along the way, you begin to realize that I have different rooms in my life. I have a study, I have a rec room, I have a closet. I have other rooms. And I need to start bringing Jesus into those rooms as well. And eventually at the end of the story he says, you know what? Here’s the deed to the house, you just take ownership. And I like the story because it is a model of that movement from salvation to Lordship that we all go through. But I also look at it as like an emotional healing kind of story. All of us have rooms in our lives that perhaps Christ is not as incarnate in. He has moved into and is in control of certain rooms in our heart, but there are others where he is not.

And often he’s not in control of those rooms because that’s where our trauma is and where our pain is, and it’s where we don’t trust him. And so not only do we sometimes deny him access to rooms in our heart because of pride or rebellion, but we sometimes do it just out of distrust that has come from the pain in our past. That’s why we connect emotional healing to the idea of how do I have a deeper walk? How do I connect with God at a deeper level? It involves needing to go to those places in my heart that are not only  not fully surrendered to him, but there’s no connection with him yet at that point in that particular place. It doesn’t mean I’m not saved, it just means that there’s a connection that he wants to have that hasn’t yet happened.

So I just want to encourage people that we’re all on a journey. Most of us probably still have some rooms in there where we need to invite Christ. And the holiday season is actually a great time to take some time to meditate on this. And ask God, is there a room in my heart that has been off limits to you that you really want to get into, and that I’d be better off if you were there?

[58:06] Stephanie: We have been meditating on Advent and the Incarnation. Digging into forming and filling and high priest theology and our walk with God. And now we’re coming to preparation. So this concept is a two way street. Preparation isn’t one sided, all on us or all on God. There’s a relationship as we’ve been talking about. So would you bring us into this discussion?

[58:34] Marcus: So let’s start with God’s street, if you will? His preparation for us. And that’s really why we started in Genesis 1. God’s been preparing this world for a relationship with us and with him. We see this modeled over and over and over again in scripture. My mind goes to the Torah, which is the anchor and the foundation for everything else in the Bible, and the Exodus story. In fact, the way I like to teach the Book of Exodus is BC, “battle” and “covenant” are the two keywords.

The first nineteen chapters are about the battle, the next twenty chapters are about the covenant. I call it the battle for the bride. And what’s happening here is like, Pharaoh is the evil villain, and Israel is the bride to be who’s imprisoned and being abused by Pharaoh. And then the hero Yahweh comes to the rescue and rescues his bride. He defeats the villain, he rescues his bride, and then he takes her off where they’re going to go get married. But the bride doesn’t know him all that well yet.

So they spend this time in the wilderness and they go through a test, and a test, and a test, where he provides for them, and provides for them, and provides for them. And they’re getting to know him. Then by the time they get to Mount Horeb or Mount Sinai, where the wedding ceremony takes place, there’s Moses at the base of the mountain and God at the top in Israel. And it’s a wedding ceremony where Moses says, do you, Yahweh, take Israel to be your bride? And he says, Israel, do you take Yahweh to be your God, forsaking all others? And at this point, Israel’s like, yeah, I’m all in. And God’s like, yes, this is what I want. So right there is at the heart of what the Torah is all about, this covenant connection, a covenant relationship. And that shows us what God has been preparing creation for and what he’s been preparing all this for, he wants there to be a relationship between him and his people. And so as you continue through Exodus once that covenant is beginning to be unpacked, this new covenant relationship, he builds essentially a house for them to live in, the Tabernacle.

And the way he organizes the camp is that the Tabernacle is right in the middle. It is central to life. It is portable, so it can move with them wherever they go. It can always be in the center wherever they’re at, and his glory and his presence are there. And it’s a picture and a model for the kind of walk he wants to have with us, the kind of relationship he wants to have with us. And it just builds out from there. The temple in Solomon’s days is the idea of when we have wandered from God, and we have gotten ourselves in trouble, God says, look to me, look to the temple, if you will. Ask for mercy, I will hear from the temple and I will answer.

So you get the classic Chronicles passage. “If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways.” The whole idea there in this repentance text is God knows his people are going to mess up. He knows his people are going to fail. There’s some of us even in this holiday season, we’ve had good intentions and we’ve totally messed up. And God’s saying, you know what, though? This relationship is a mercy based relationship. And so when Jesus comes in the Incarnation, now this is a lot of theology in one quick answer. But when Jesus comes in the Incarnation, one of the names that’s given to him is hilasterion. 

In Greek, it’s the mercy seat which is the seat on top of the Ark of the Covenant that is in the tabernacle in the temple. And we see this tabernacle temple theology carried over in its core to the whole incarnation of Christ, and what he came to do. And his title means mercy seat. It’s the idea of atonement cover. It’s where Christ came to make atonement for us. So that all of our mess ups, all of our screw ups, all of our good intentions gone awry, and all those times when we weren’t having good intentions, he gets it. He sees it, and he can do something about it. So he’s been preparing, and preparing, and preparing for us to experience reconciliation, and to walk in reconciliation.

Reconciliation is all about the relationship. He wants a restored relationship. It’s been his plan. It’s been his purpose from the beginning. It’s been his plan throughout. And I could expand on it because there’s like a hundred other ways the Bible talks about God’s preparation for us, his reaching out for us. And the gospel itself is explained as God’s invitation to be at peace with him, to be reconciled to him and to enter into that relational walk with him. Being filled with his spirit, guided by the scripture, and because of what Christ has done. So it just all kind of comes together when you look at what God has done in preparing, it’s all there.

[01:04:19] Stephanie: Prepare the way. Prepare the way.

[01:04:22] Marcus: There is John the Baptist.

[01:04:23] Stephanie: Yes.

[01:04:24] Marcus: Or “Crazy John” as on The Chosen.

[01:04:29] Stephanie: All right, so let’s look at, how do we prepare for him?

[01:04:36] Marcus: Before we do that, let me give you one more thing on him. I’ve been talking about theology and the Bible, and whatever in our practical everyday lives. One of the things that God does to reach out to us, to draw us, reminds me of what the Gottman Institute says when it talks about marriage, it talks about bids. In a relational setting, like, even with you and me. If you put out a “bid” that said, oh, I found this thing really fascinating, and I was like, oh, that’s nice. And if that was it, that’s all the reaction you got, that would not be satisfying. But every time that you put out a “bid”, like, oh, I just love this, or I like that. Isn’t that cool? What you’re really doing is inviting me to experience that with you. It’s a “bid” for relationship. It’s usually talked about in marriage terms, but this is any relationship, there are always “bids”. And like, do you want to join me in this? Will you share my joy in this?

And God does that with us, I think, all of the time. And there are “bids” in our lives throughout the day where God does something, and he’s waiting to see if we will pause and appreciate it, and share the moment with him and say, oh, this is really cool. Thank you, God. And one of the ways we build our relationship with God is by recognizing these “bids” he sends our way and responding to them, and pausing to experience signs of appreciation and joy in his presence.

So one of the ways that we transition to preparing ourselves, is we need to get in the mindset of learning to recognize those “bids”. Learning to recognize those things that God does in our lives that are invitations. And there are some that are just basic and happen every day, like the sunrise and the sunset. The beauty of the sky, the beauty of nature. There are things all around us all of the time where God is kind of calling us to himself, saying, hey, want to share this with me? Want to share this with me? And so we just expand from there and we build from there.

And we notice the other opportunities that he gives us on a constant basis to say, hey, share some time with me. Share this moment with me. I think about my own relationship with your mother. And honestly, the health of our relationship largely comes down to how well we respond to each other’s “bids”. Like when she’s really excited about something and I don’t respond, it hurts her. When I’m really into something and she doesn’t respond, it hurts me. So it’s that way in any kind of relationship, I think. And so it makes sense that it would be part of our relationship with God and that we have this opportunity to connect.

[01:07:24] Stephanie: Yeah. It just goes straight back to what we were talking about in the last episode. Walking with God and the importance of understanding that it’s not just about us striving to get to him, but that he really is entering into our lives and he does give us “bids”. It’s good for us to know how to recognize them.

[01:07:45] Marcus: Yeah. And then on the further extreme of that is the concept of “The Hound of Heaven.” That classic old English poem from the 1800’s that talks about that even if I’m not seeking God, it doesn’t mean he’s not coming after me. I’m talking to the people who are seeking God. But most of us have people in our lives who are not seeking him and we wonder. But the reality is God is orchestrating things to get them into situations where they’re going to be confronted with their needs. And some of the situations that look the most hopeless simply become the most dramatic when they finally do resolve. And so we are confident that God is pursuing us. He pursues us every day. And our part of it begins with learning to recognize those things that he does to pursue us. It’s also learning to recognize the obstacles that we have allowed into our lives that are keeping us from maybe even recognizing what God is doing, from even seeing and sensing that he’s there.

[01:08:57] Stephanie: We have to look at the lenses that we’re looking at the world through.

[01:08:59] Marcus: Right.

[01:09:00] Stephanie: Our worldview is so important. What we believe is possible is important. Our vows will get in our way anyway, you.

[01:09:08] Marcus: You’re right. All that. And so I go back through all this, that on our end part of our preparation is pausing and taking time to quiet ourselves. To practice appreciation, to meditate on things of the Bible, the things of God. But also asking God to start showing us, where is the next obstacle between us that needs to be addressed? We can’t fix all of them all at once. Chris Coursey and I wrote a book on marriage called The Four Habits of Joy-Filled Marriages.

[01:09:51] Marcus: But the key concept there is a joy gap. In any marriage there is a gap that is defined by how long has it been since you experienced joy with this person? Well, that concept of a joy gap applies to every relationship. In other words, I am going to feel more bonded with somebody the more that gap is closed. And I think even in some of our long term relationships when we aren’t connecting with them regularly, when our last connection was a joy connection, we can go back to that quickly when we connect with them.

So I think in our relationship with God one of the things that helps us and one of the things that we can do to prepare, is to be aware of the joy gap that exists between us and God. Taking time to practice appreciation and interactive gratitude. We not only practice appreciation toward him, but we pause to see what thoughts are coming our way afterwards to help establish that connection with him.

[01:10:59] Stephanie: Beautiful. I’m trying to balance out our time for the episode here. I’m going to say right now, this is going to be our final episode of 2023. Next Monday is Christmas Day, and we are going to be practicing some rest in the Warner household. Hallelujah! And we hope you will too. Father. I’m going to give you kind of a three tiered closing thoughts here. One closing thoughts for this episode, and then closing thoughts for the Advent series as a whole, and then just some closing thoughts for 2023. So for this episode, anything more you want to say about preparation?

[01:11:43] Marcus: Well, the idea of preparation is important because when you go back to Joshua, and God said, tell the people to prepare themselves because tomorrow something big is going to happen. And preparing our hearts, preparing ourselves for things always involves cleansing, purifying, and getting rid of things out of our lives that don’t need to be there. And one of the big things that we do as we’re wrapping up this idea of preparing ourselves for relational connection with God and for the incarnation of God in our own lives, is asking, what is it that kind of needs cleared out? You know, what do we need to prune? What do we need to cut back? What do we need to get rid of? Because it’s clogging our connection.

So I think when we’re talking about preparation, a lot of preparation has to do with cleansing, and that has to do with getting rid of things. And also then the pouring of water, the washing, and then the resting. I think as we bring those things together you have to do some of that in order to get the kind of connection that you’re looking for with God. So that would be my wrap up for today.

That’s point one of the three point sermon you just asked for. Okay, here we go. So, point two, the wrap up to the whole series. I’m also reminded that the final Sunday of Advent, or the final candle of advent, is always joy. Like, in every tradition, it’s about joy. It’s the Christ candle and it’s connected to the idea of joy. And I’m just reminded again that sometimes we look to Christmas to give us joy. Like, please, I hope this is a happy Christmas. I hope this Christmas will fill me with joy.

And the reality is that it rarely works.  It rarely works to ask for something to fill a hole in my heart. What I need to do instead is sort of practice finding joy wherever I can find it, recognizing joy when it’s there, and practicing and sharing joy whenever possible. So what I want to do is try to find ways to insert some joy wherever I can. I find frequently that If I’m like, oh, this thing will make me happy, It rarely does. But if I’m like, I want to find a way to inject some joy into this and to share some joy, that is its own reward.

[01:14:19] Stephanie: Joy amplifies.

[01:14:21] Marcus: Joy amplifies. And so as we’re wrapping up an Advent series, I think the ultimate sign of a love bond with God that I am lovingly attached in relationship to God, is that it does produce joy. It does produce peace. And so we’re preparing ourselves for the connection because it’s the connection that brings those things.

[01:14:47] Stephanie: Thank you. Part three, 2023 has been quite the year. You even made a nod to your book release inadvertently, because it was actually the year that The Four Habits of Joy-Filled People came out. Huzzah! So, 2023, any thoughts as we are turning from one year to the next?

[01:15:13] Marcus: Well, my mind goes back to the purpose and idea of A Deeper Walk. And it started back when I had just wrapped up seven years as a pastor and I was asking myself the question, kind of in prayer,  how many people experienced a deeper walk as a result of the last seven years of ministry? And God brought names to mind of people who are having a deeper walk with God. I’m like, what about the people who didn’t? What’s different between those two groups? And I felt like God was bringing some ideas to mind. The way that all culminated was that God desires a deeper walk with all of us, but there are obstacles that get in our way. And if we could identify what those obstacles are and give people strategies for overcoming those obstacles, then we could help more Christians have a deeper walk with God. Well, that’s the birth of the ministry.

That’s the birth of at least my branch of the ministry. Obviously, Mark Bubeck was already teaching people how to walk in freedom, and live with spiritual warfare and that kind of victory. But my journey started kind of with the idea of, what if we could help people identify what’s got them stuck? What if we could help them identify the obstacles more accurately, with greater precision? You think this is what’s in the way, but actually this is what’s in the way. So now here’s the strategy you need in order to deal with that. And if we could help people do that then they can live with greater freedom. And that freedom is removing the obstacles that keep us from a deeper walk with God. And so that’s the whole ministry, right?

That’s not just this year, that’s why we exist. It’s what all this is about. It’s what the podcast is about. Everything ultimately keeps coming back to the same idea that God loves us. He wants to be in a deep, meaningful relationship with us. And to get there we’re going to have to identify and overcome those obstacles. And Deeper Walk is here to help people do that. Let’s be precise about what that is, and let’s be precise about what the solution is in getting to that next level.

[01:17:22] Stephanie: Thanks for joining us On the Trail today. Did you like this episode? Would you like more people to see it? This is the part where I ask you to like, comment, subscribe, and share with a friend. Do you love this channel? One of the best ways that you can support us is by becoming a Deeper Walk Trailblazer.

Thanks again. We’ll see you back on the trail next week.